Post by snoho17 on Oct 6, 2021 6:29:56 GMT
As transcribed by Meankitty from Josh Hancock's documentary.
"There is a section of the DVD interview with the counselor where Marty was supposed to have said, talking about Tina, "She was a witness, I couldn't let her live because she would tell him it was me. I played the DVD several time with earphones at a good volume and this is what I heard. I do know there are people who heard it as tell them it was me. I transcribed how I heard it.
Counselor interview transcript
Um, in our conversations you referred to him as Marty. I never did. Uh, I only knew him as Martin, introduced himself as Martin, I called him Martin. Um and, in the context that I met him, Marty was a little too familiar for me anyway in our relationship. So, in 1981, I was working as a counselor in an outpatient mental health therapist and a public agency in Reno, Nevada. Martin came to our facility and was assigned to me, and he had initially presented his reasons for being there of having problems with his temper, wanting some anger management techniques or therapies. He voiced more than once problems in his adult life that he had had with women, um specifically, he was involved in breakup or a divorce and he didn’t want the divorce. He didn’t want out of it, and he felt that a big reason for the divorce was his lack of skills or his skill set in dealing with women and relationships, and he wanted to talk through that. We set up um, a regular schedule, and he agreed to meet with me for one hour once a week. In the initial meetings and, I think we may have had a total of 7 or 8 meetings, total. In the initial meetings we talked a great deal about his issues with anger and his issues with women, specifically his wife that was divorcing him and, what role he played in that, if any. He threw out an interesting hypothesis. Martin stated that he had been in Vietnam and had served in the army in Vietnam, and that possibly he was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. I was heavily involved in the research and the dynamics of PTSD, at that time in 1981, and felt that I knew a great deal about that, so I asked him why he thought that that was participating to, you know, in his, his dysfunction that was bringing him to seek out counseling. Martin told me that he was a cook and it was either in, in the army in either Long Bien or Bin Hoa, which, as I understand it were huge army facilities, and probably the safest place in the entire country to be. I asked him if he ever received rockets or mortars into his compound and he said no. I asked him if he ever heard the sound of gunfire or if he ever fired his rifle, he said no. I asked him, given that information, why would he think that, that could be a diagnosis, and Martin stated that he never knew when he was sleeping in his quarters there if something like that would happen. I pushed him on it, and asked him to be honest with me and to be honest with himself and got him to admit and agree that he really was not in fear, he had a, an easy tour in the military and , and we agreed that that would probably not be a diagnosis and we moved on from there.
Probably around the fourth or fifth meeting we had, Martin expressed that he had had some trouble in Quincy, near where he hung out in a community called Keddie. The conversation led to, yes, he’d even been brought into the Sheriff’s office, questioned, and given a polygraph. He stated he that passed the polygraph, and he also stated that the Sheriff was a friend of his. I don’t know if there is any fact in that, any substance, but he was adamant that the Sheriff was a friend of his, and he also stated that the Sheriff was such a good friend, that one time, there was a time frame when Martin was down and out and didn’t have a place to stay, and the Sheriff had allowed him to stay at his residence for, I want to sat three weeks or a time frame close to that. I don’t know if any of that’s true. I never met the Sheriff. But Martin also began to bring up that he had a circle of guy friends, and he suggested that if anything bad had happened, it was probably his guy friends that had done it because they were, they were that type of individual, and he wasn’t. I asked him why he would hang out with people that were that, that kind of individual, and befriend them if, if that could lead to trouble for him, or to put him in a compromising situation and he had no answer for that.
The next session he did not want to discuss—I was asking him about his friends and his living arrangement and his condition. He didn’t want to discuss any of that, he wanted to tell me about a woman that was an extreme bitch that was a friend of his wife’s, that was probably partially responsible, if not more than partially responsible for his wife turning on him and turning against him. I tried to explore that with him, I think in his anger and his rage got in the way of any useful dialog or useful conversation.
In our next meeting, and this would be the second to the last time that I ever saw Martin. He came in, sat down. He was calm, he was serene, he was matter-of-fact, and he told me that he wanted to tell me the truth, and what was really bothering him. I asked him to go ahead and do so. And he told me, first he asked me “Did you hear about the murders in Keddie?” And I said yes, I’d heard about it. He said, “I killed the woman and her daughter, but I didn’t have anything to do with the other two.” I asked him why he would do that. Martin stated that it was because of the, our conversation a week prior that he was convinced that the woman, the adult female was responsible for turning his wife against him, and encouraging and supporting her, in her attempts to get away from, and divorce Martin. I asked him why you would hurt the child, and Martin stated that she saw the whole thing, I couldn’t have a witness. Martin told me that he used a hammer and, it was interesting while he was describing this horrific act, he had what psychologists refer to as flat affect, as he describes striking the woman, the older woman with the hammer in the head and literally killing blows. His voice was close to monotone, lacking any inflection or either happiness, sadness, sorrow, joy; it was just flat, he just laid it out.
When he was discussing the 12-year-old child, he, his facial expression showed a level of discomfort, but he continually, he also killed her with a hammer. And he continued to rationalize it with “she was a witness; I couldn’t let her live because she would tell him it was me. I remember asking him, why didn’t’ the child run away. And he indicated that he’d incapacitated her in some way so that she could not run away. I didn’t know what that meant, and when I tried to pursue it he went off on a different, different subject. I also asked was there screaming, was there any of that going on, he said there was noise, there was commotion, but it was in the middle of nowhere and no one would have heard it anyway. I advised him he should go to the police immediately and reveal this information and turn himself in. He smiled. He didn’t say that he would, he didn’t say that he would not. I asked him about the polygraph again and he said, “I beat it, I beat the polygraph. Because those things are easy to beat. I was lying. I was lying on the polygraph, and they let me go.” And he found that amusing. He didn’t laugh out loud, but he, but he was smiling.
I asked him about his friendship, I tried to go a different direction, and ask him about his friendship with the Sheriff, if the friendship was genuine. And the man had been nice to him and had reached out to him and had given him a place to stay. I tried to point out to him that he would be violating that friendship, he’d be breaking that trust that he had with this, with this good person. And that for his own sake, he would need to make that right; he would need to make that right.
That afternoon, I made a phone call to the Department of Justice, asked for the parties that were working on the Keddie homicides, spoke to a, it was a male voice, I’m sorry I don’t recall the name; he stated that he and his partner would like to come and talk with me and he stated he would get back to me on a time and placed that we could meet. I think it’s important to point out that in a therapeutic setting, a client or a patient has confidentiality and all the therapists that I know in this country doing this good work, honor confidentiality. However, when you’re notified of a crime of this magnitude, you have the responsibility to report it, and we did.
Approximately three days later, Martin walked into our office without an appointment. I was available and I asked him if he wanted to come to my office and talk, and he said “No, I just came to say goodbye, I’m leaving the area.” I asked him where he was going and he said he had a job with a carnival tht at the time was working in the valley of Northern California. It wasn't specific, but I was assuming Redding or something like that. And that they would be moving north through Oregon and Washington on this carnival season. I asked him if he’d gone to the Sheriff, he stated that he had not, and I asked him If he had any plans to do so, and he stated he needed to think on it some more.
The weekend came, Monday, I came into my office when I usually did, about 8:30 a.m. and there, I’d not made a call but there were two gentlemen from the Department of Justice and I related to them everything that I’d just told you now, and my conversations with Martin, and his admission of, of killing two of, of the victims, and they took copious notes and advised them of the carnival situation and where they could possible reach him, and they seemed to be excited and enthusiastic to get going on that and to apprehend him, was my assumption.
I continued being a counselor for approximately one year after that event. And while it was satisfying and I felt that I enjoyed the work and was good at it, I wanted to get out of an office and go another direction. I had always been fascinated by law enforcement. So, while I was still working there, I tested with a few agencies and I was hired by a law enforcement agency, where I worked for 20 years. The agency I work for would have notes, but they would be confidential and I would not, I too would not have access to them because I’ve been gone for so long. I’m sorry that I can’t give you more, but, but I hope in some way this helps you.
Josh: It was your impression that Marty was telling the truth?
Counselor: I believed him. I believed him, and in private conversations with you, I’ve told you that I, I’m pretty good on getting a read on people. I trust my read on him. I believed he was telling the truth, I believed he, I believe he killed the, the two women he told me he killed, the woman and a child."
"There is a section of the DVD interview with the counselor where Marty was supposed to have said, talking about Tina, "She was a witness, I couldn't let her live because she would tell him it was me. I played the DVD several time with earphones at a good volume and this is what I heard. I do know there are people who heard it as tell them it was me. I transcribed how I heard it.
Counselor interview transcript
Um, in our conversations you referred to him as Marty. I never did. Uh, I only knew him as Martin, introduced himself as Martin, I called him Martin. Um and, in the context that I met him, Marty was a little too familiar for me anyway in our relationship. So, in 1981, I was working as a counselor in an outpatient mental health therapist and a public agency in Reno, Nevada. Martin came to our facility and was assigned to me, and he had initially presented his reasons for being there of having problems with his temper, wanting some anger management techniques or therapies. He voiced more than once problems in his adult life that he had had with women, um specifically, he was involved in breakup or a divorce and he didn’t want the divorce. He didn’t want out of it, and he felt that a big reason for the divorce was his lack of skills or his skill set in dealing with women and relationships, and he wanted to talk through that. We set up um, a regular schedule, and he agreed to meet with me for one hour once a week. In the initial meetings and, I think we may have had a total of 7 or 8 meetings, total. In the initial meetings we talked a great deal about his issues with anger and his issues with women, specifically his wife that was divorcing him and, what role he played in that, if any. He threw out an interesting hypothesis. Martin stated that he had been in Vietnam and had served in the army in Vietnam, and that possibly he was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. I was heavily involved in the research and the dynamics of PTSD, at that time in 1981, and felt that I knew a great deal about that, so I asked him why he thought that that was participating to, you know, in his, his dysfunction that was bringing him to seek out counseling. Martin told me that he was a cook and it was either in, in the army in either Long Bien or Bin Hoa, which, as I understand it were huge army facilities, and probably the safest place in the entire country to be. I asked him if he ever received rockets or mortars into his compound and he said no. I asked him if he ever heard the sound of gunfire or if he ever fired his rifle, he said no. I asked him, given that information, why would he think that, that could be a diagnosis, and Martin stated that he never knew when he was sleeping in his quarters there if something like that would happen. I pushed him on it, and asked him to be honest with me and to be honest with himself and got him to admit and agree that he really was not in fear, he had a, an easy tour in the military and , and we agreed that that would probably not be a diagnosis and we moved on from there.
Probably around the fourth or fifth meeting we had, Martin expressed that he had had some trouble in Quincy, near where he hung out in a community called Keddie. The conversation led to, yes, he’d even been brought into the Sheriff’s office, questioned, and given a polygraph. He stated he that passed the polygraph, and he also stated that the Sheriff was a friend of his. I don’t know if there is any fact in that, any substance, but he was adamant that the Sheriff was a friend of his, and he also stated that the Sheriff was such a good friend, that one time, there was a time frame when Martin was down and out and didn’t have a place to stay, and the Sheriff had allowed him to stay at his residence for, I want to sat three weeks or a time frame close to that. I don’t know if any of that’s true. I never met the Sheriff. But Martin also began to bring up that he had a circle of guy friends, and he suggested that if anything bad had happened, it was probably his guy friends that had done it because they were, they were that type of individual, and he wasn’t. I asked him why he would hang out with people that were that, that kind of individual, and befriend them if, if that could lead to trouble for him, or to put him in a compromising situation and he had no answer for that.
The next session he did not want to discuss—I was asking him about his friends and his living arrangement and his condition. He didn’t want to discuss any of that, he wanted to tell me about a woman that was an extreme bitch that was a friend of his wife’s, that was probably partially responsible, if not more than partially responsible for his wife turning on him and turning against him. I tried to explore that with him, I think in his anger and his rage got in the way of any useful dialog or useful conversation.
In our next meeting, and this would be the second to the last time that I ever saw Martin. He came in, sat down. He was calm, he was serene, he was matter-of-fact, and he told me that he wanted to tell me the truth, and what was really bothering him. I asked him to go ahead and do so. And he told me, first he asked me “Did you hear about the murders in Keddie?” And I said yes, I’d heard about it. He said, “I killed the woman and her daughter, but I didn’t have anything to do with the other two.” I asked him why he would do that. Martin stated that it was because of the, our conversation a week prior that he was convinced that the woman, the adult female was responsible for turning his wife against him, and encouraging and supporting her, in her attempts to get away from, and divorce Martin. I asked him why you would hurt the child, and Martin stated that she saw the whole thing, I couldn’t have a witness. Martin told me that he used a hammer and, it was interesting while he was describing this horrific act, he had what psychologists refer to as flat affect, as he describes striking the woman, the older woman with the hammer in the head and literally killing blows. His voice was close to monotone, lacking any inflection or either happiness, sadness, sorrow, joy; it was just flat, he just laid it out.
When he was discussing the 12-year-old child, he, his facial expression showed a level of discomfort, but he continually, he also killed her with a hammer. And he continued to rationalize it with “she was a witness; I couldn’t let her live because she would tell him it was me. I remember asking him, why didn’t’ the child run away. And he indicated that he’d incapacitated her in some way so that she could not run away. I didn’t know what that meant, and when I tried to pursue it he went off on a different, different subject. I also asked was there screaming, was there any of that going on, he said there was noise, there was commotion, but it was in the middle of nowhere and no one would have heard it anyway. I advised him he should go to the police immediately and reveal this information and turn himself in. He smiled. He didn’t say that he would, he didn’t say that he would not. I asked him about the polygraph again and he said, “I beat it, I beat the polygraph. Because those things are easy to beat. I was lying. I was lying on the polygraph, and they let me go.” And he found that amusing. He didn’t laugh out loud, but he, but he was smiling.
I asked him about his friendship, I tried to go a different direction, and ask him about his friendship with the Sheriff, if the friendship was genuine. And the man had been nice to him and had reached out to him and had given him a place to stay. I tried to point out to him that he would be violating that friendship, he’d be breaking that trust that he had with this, with this good person. And that for his own sake, he would need to make that right; he would need to make that right.
That afternoon, I made a phone call to the Department of Justice, asked for the parties that were working on the Keddie homicides, spoke to a, it was a male voice, I’m sorry I don’t recall the name; he stated that he and his partner would like to come and talk with me and he stated he would get back to me on a time and placed that we could meet. I think it’s important to point out that in a therapeutic setting, a client or a patient has confidentiality and all the therapists that I know in this country doing this good work, honor confidentiality. However, when you’re notified of a crime of this magnitude, you have the responsibility to report it, and we did.
Approximately three days later, Martin walked into our office without an appointment. I was available and I asked him if he wanted to come to my office and talk, and he said “No, I just came to say goodbye, I’m leaving the area.” I asked him where he was going and he said he had a job with a carnival tht at the time was working in the valley of Northern California. It wasn't specific, but I was assuming Redding or something like that. And that they would be moving north through Oregon and Washington on this carnival season. I asked him if he’d gone to the Sheriff, he stated that he had not, and I asked him If he had any plans to do so, and he stated he needed to think on it some more.
The weekend came, Monday, I came into my office when I usually did, about 8:30 a.m. and there, I’d not made a call but there were two gentlemen from the Department of Justice and I related to them everything that I’d just told you now, and my conversations with Martin, and his admission of, of killing two of, of the victims, and they took copious notes and advised them of the carnival situation and where they could possible reach him, and they seemed to be excited and enthusiastic to get going on that and to apprehend him, was my assumption.
I continued being a counselor for approximately one year after that event. And while it was satisfying and I felt that I enjoyed the work and was good at it, I wanted to get out of an office and go another direction. I had always been fascinated by law enforcement. So, while I was still working there, I tested with a few agencies and I was hired by a law enforcement agency, where I worked for 20 years. The agency I work for would have notes, but they would be confidential and I would not, I too would not have access to them because I’ve been gone for so long. I’m sorry that I can’t give you more, but, but I hope in some way this helps you.
Josh: It was your impression that Marty was telling the truth?
Counselor: I believed him. I believed him, and in private conversations with you, I’ve told you that I, I’m pretty good on getting a read on people. I trust my read on him. I believed he was telling the truth, I believed he, I believe he killed the, the two women he told me he killed, the woman and a child."
