Post by snoho17 on Apr 3, 2022 5:43:45 GMT
Thanks for laying this out, Hope originally posted here: zodiackillerhoax1986.freeforums.net/thread/486/kell1-websleuths-assessment
www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/ca-sue-sharp-36-3-children-keddie-cabin-murders-plumas-11-april-1981.181214/page-8
Kell1
Verified law enforcement
Ok here goes
Damn friggin creepy case,
Anyway as we always do we start with who we do know,.....the victims
Its a long arduous process , but all of the victims need to be assessed via Victimology assessment to see if anything in their lives made them a target .
You have a mixed group here , you have a family of 6,
1 adult female, 5 children the victims however are
1 adult female, 2 teenage males, 1 adolescent female who is abducted not immediately identified as a homicide.
Its difficult without being involved in the investigation to glean what their lives were like especially in a 30 year old homicide.
Apparently the victims had moved into the cabin sometime around November of the year before the murders which occurred April of 81 (6 mos.) .... If I Wiki'd it right
The younger victims were saying in a cabin next door, and the 2 teen males were supposed to spend the night at another cabin as well .
Meaning that they were either there when the crime began, or they walked in on it and became victims .
I saw one report that said the boys hitchhiked home that day from wherever they were earlier , and my 1st thought was did someone follow them home?
However looking at what crime scene photos are on the net , I tend to feel that this was no stranger to the family,
It's evident to me that this wasn't a planned offense.
The offender came into an occupied home with nothing to bind multiple victims, all of the victims are killed with objects that originate from within the home , this tells me 2 things,
1) He wasn't planning on binding them, most likely because he didn't plan on killing them
2) In order to bind multiple victims he needed assistance, either in the form of an accomplice, or through the use of threat , such as brandishing a weapon or perhaps a BB Gun that looked to the untrained eye like a real firearm.
The killing of the Sharp herself and her son differ from the murder of the 3rd victim found in the cabin where the Mother and son were bound bludgeoned and had their throats slashed , the 3rd victim (Dana Wingate) was beaten and manually strangled, and in the crime scene photos it appears (if this victim was indeed Wingate) that his hands weren't bound .
The Cause of Death for Tina Sharp remains a mystery.
A blanket from Glenna's own bed is used to cover her body, she is the only one who is treated in this manner.
This is what is often referred to as "undoing" which is a behavior often seen when an offender, tries to "care" for their victim post offense, it almost always indicates familiarity with the victim on a personal level.
In trying to find out anything about the victims I was unsuccessful in terms of being able to find enough to formulate a true victimology assessment , so I could be on on this or I could be WAY off..
In terms of a family dynamic it was tough to learn much about learn anything about the victims. From what little bits I could glean there was a lot of turmoil in the family. The 12 year old Tina was known to a be a somewhat rebellious pre-teen , who tested her mother regularly. In the 6 months they lived in the cabin community it appeared to many in the area that Glenna had lost control over her kids .
The 15 yo Son John had fallen in with a questionable crowd including his older friend Wingate, who had a criminal record I believe.
Now I'm not saying this is what happened but as a family begins to fall apart ,and those bonds between family members begin to weaken, people often begin to form bonds that stretch out past the normal reach of what we call our "family".
We see this often with kids who join gangs, we see this often when kids fall into bad crowds, and we sometimes see it where kids become victims of Pedophiles , who molest
(Important note: not all Pedophiles molest, and most Child molesters aren't pedophiles)
As these people begin to socially branch out beyond family control ...... Sometimes they bring something bad back with them
And in that "branching out: I feel one of the family members made contact with someone who ultimately killed them all.
SO who was it?
Now before I go on I just want to say that this is my personal analysis based on studies dine by the FBI , experience as law enforcement officer, studies in forensics, and based on data gathered by large University studies done by both the Federal govt in unison,
Oh and just a heads up
I WILL NOT DEBATE ANY OF THESE POINTS, FEEL FREE TO DISAGREE WITH ANY OF THEM BUT I WILL NOT BE DRAWN INTO AN ARGUMENT BECAUSE SOMEONE DOESN'T LIKE WHAT I WRITE, FEEL FREE TO REPORT IT IF YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE . BUT I WILL NOT BE DRAWN INTO A BACK AND FORTH WHICH DOES NOTHING TO POSSIBLY FURTHER THE CASE , (Sorry I've been down this road before here)
SO what happened?
When you analyze all of the data, the pictures, the reports, the evidence, what you can't help but notice is that the 2 blood relatives, of the only victim removed from the home, suffered the greatest amount of violence, indicating that they were the targets of "rage"
When you look at the body of Wingate, he is laying with a pillow under his chest and head , his feet are bound but his hands appear to be free, however the violence he suffered wasn't the same as the other 2 victims, he was beaten and manually strangled, but didn't have his throat slashed.
SO far we have no signs of forced entry , we have weapons procured from inside the home, we have bindings procured inside the home, we have a extremely violent crime scene with 2 victims bludgeoned and stabbed to death , one victim being killed differently than the other 2, we have , no witnesses in terms of noise, youngest children not present (Coincidence?..possibly)
Then we have a 12 yo female victim that is removed from the premises, and her remains found 3 years later and 29 miles away after an anonymous phone call .
The lack of sexual assault the absence of any type of theft , belays the motive behind these murders , and indicates that this individual did not have a sexual preference for either adolescent boys, OR adult women
In this case, you are looking at anger, anger toward the relatives of Tina, (as she’s the only one removed) perhaps with the notion of having Tina all to himself….My feeling is that this was someone who was enamored with Tina, he was known to the family, and though he sexually desired her he took on a role as some type of guardian to her.
This was an older individual (late 20's early 30's) who was comfortable with violence. he was able to gain control of 4 victims of varying ages, , which demonstrates not only a familiarity with violence, but criminal experience.
This is almost certainly a “fixated” type pedophile -This tye is an individual with a true sexual preference for children, in this case young females, he most likely has other victims as well.
Now here’s the part I refuse to Debate.. It seems that whenever you implicate a member of a family in someone's murder especially one of a child, it pisses someone off …. SO if that's you stop reading now!
There is a chance, albeit slight , that Tina may have initiated this crime, perhaps unknowingly so , by confiding in this individual that she was angry with her mother, or perhaps even wanted something to happen to her mother, .. Now it’s entirely possible this individual decided to commit this crime out of "love" and "devotion".
Now another possibility that is not out of the realm is the possible discovery of Tina being molested by this individual
However there may have been a “master plan” set forth by both to take Tina away from whatever perceived ills her family situation presented her, that Tina herself may have been aware of or even agreed to .
The covering of the mother figure, may have been to calm her down, or possibly even done by Tina herself .
I know it sounds horrible, but the evidence in this case seems to indicate that this was what happened.
So why was Tina killed ?, thats where the lines blur a bit ,
There are 3 possible narratives I feel could explain why she was killed, however, all of them depend on when she was actually killed,
If she was killed immediately after, and transported, or transported to where she was killed, it's possible the killer was in panic mode. He would most likely have to explain his sudden disappearance to those in the area where he and most likely they lived, therefore once he realized he couldn't possibly keep Tina , he had to get rid of her .
The second which I feel may be more accurate,
Because we have no indication of when Tina was actually killed, I feel that Tina was probably wrought with guilt over the killings, even though she may have knowingly or unknowingly had some influence on the crime, it's possible she grew more and more uncomfortable with the offenders growing sexual pressures, or sexual contact over time , she may have not been aware that he had a “price” he intended her to pay , her assertive attitude , may have lead her to become brazen with him , perhaps even begin to talk . He felt she became too much of a liability.
The 3rd is probably the most disturbing and sad
It’s not uncommon for these types to be involved in the production of and trading of Child pornography , sometimes on a huge scale as well, its possible that he had planned to use Tina in that manner, but after having killed her family it was way too risky to have her seen in any pictures or video , because not only would that jeopardize him, but the operation. Even amongst pedophiles, he couldn't take the risk of being identified
Kell1
Verified law enforcement
Thanks for the info, but Ill stick with my assessment, theres too many holes in the theories you listed above.
Im sure you know what you are talking about, but I surmise that if that is indeed the official "theory" of what happened..... that is why the case remains unsolved.
Makes no sense
Nov 14, 2015
Kell1
Verified law enforcement
If you're not trying to argue then perhaps you need to understand some (perhaps with experience in the field ) may feel different given their background, and what information and evidence is out there on this case.
I don't read blogs, I dont read peoples webpages, for that very reason.. usually there's a heavy dose of opinion on them, and all opinion needs is 1 person to agree with it then everyone who comes along that dare think otherwise, is out of their mind
Seen it happen a bunch of times, ..
I was also advised that Former FBI special agent John Douglas (and profiler whether or not you like him) reviewed this case, and came up with a pretty similar finding to mine .
Remember a "gut" feeling is often right, whether or not you have experience in something or not, many cases have been solved because of that very same gut feeling
I have actually seen what is referred to as staging, NOW unless the photos I was shown either 1) Were Not of the actual crime scene, or 2) Incomplete, or 3) they were altered, I don't see it with this case, as a matter of fact I don't even see anything that looks like attempted staging, at least in my experience .
If you have insider info and you know it's on point .. great, but given what info I have read, given what I have seen, and what I have access to .... I will stay to my theory
If it turns out I was wrong.. hey so be it , I was given a narrative on the story, a few pics, and a few random pieces of background info on some of the victims.
But again I will say what you are proposing raises more questions than it answers.
Now as for the vids, the design is outstanding , the 3d stuff can get confusing (moving through walls etc..) but the details were really well laid out .
So again, if you're right , hey good job, but Ill wait to see if anything ever materializes on the case.
Nov 14, 2015
And this statement from Kell1 is exactly what went wrong with the Keddie case, why so much damage has been done:
Kell1
Verified law enforcement
don't read blogs, I dont read peoples webpages, for that very reason.. usually there's a heavy dose of opinion on them, and all opinion needs is 1 person to agree with it then everyone who comes along that dare think otherwise, is out of their mind
www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/ca-sue-sharp-36-3-children-keddie-cabin-murders-plumas-11-april-1981.181214/page-8
Kell1
Verified law enforcement
Ok here goes
Damn friggin creepy case,
Anyway as we always do we start with who we do know,.....the victims
Its a long arduous process , but all of the victims need to be assessed via Victimology assessment to see if anything in their lives made them a target .
You have a mixed group here , you have a family of 6,
1 adult female, 5 children the victims however are
1 adult female, 2 teenage males, 1 adolescent female who is abducted not immediately identified as a homicide.
Its difficult without being involved in the investigation to glean what their lives were like especially in a 30 year old homicide.
Apparently the victims had moved into the cabin sometime around November of the year before the murders which occurred April of 81 (6 mos.) .... If I Wiki'd it right
The younger victims were saying in a cabin next door, and the 2 teen males were supposed to spend the night at another cabin as well .
Meaning that they were either there when the crime began, or they walked in on it and became victims .
I saw one report that said the boys hitchhiked home that day from wherever they were earlier , and my 1st thought was did someone follow them home?
However looking at what crime scene photos are on the net , I tend to feel that this was no stranger to the family,
It's evident to me that this wasn't a planned offense.
The offender came into an occupied home with nothing to bind multiple victims, all of the victims are killed with objects that originate from within the home , this tells me 2 things,
1) He wasn't planning on binding them, most likely because he didn't plan on killing them
2) In order to bind multiple victims he needed assistance, either in the form of an accomplice, or through the use of threat , such as brandishing a weapon or perhaps a BB Gun that looked to the untrained eye like a real firearm.
The killing of the Sharp herself and her son differ from the murder of the 3rd victim found in the cabin where the Mother and son were bound bludgeoned and had their throats slashed , the 3rd victim (Dana Wingate) was beaten and manually strangled, and in the crime scene photos it appears (if this victim was indeed Wingate) that his hands weren't bound .
The Cause of Death for Tina Sharp remains a mystery.
A blanket from Glenna's own bed is used to cover her body, she is the only one who is treated in this manner.
This is what is often referred to as "undoing" which is a behavior often seen when an offender, tries to "care" for their victim post offense, it almost always indicates familiarity with the victim on a personal level.
In trying to find out anything about the victims I was unsuccessful in terms of being able to find enough to formulate a true victimology assessment , so I could be on on this or I could be WAY off..
In terms of a family dynamic it was tough to learn much about learn anything about the victims. From what little bits I could glean there was a lot of turmoil in the family. The 12 year old Tina was known to a be a somewhat rebellious pre-teen , who tested her mother regularly. In the 6 months they lived in the cabin community it appeared to many in the area that Glenna had lost control over her kids .
The 15 yo Son John had fallen in with a questionable crowd including his older friend Wingate, who had a criminal record I believe.
Now I'm not saying this is what happened but as a family begins to fall apart ,and those bonds between family members begin to weaken, people often begin to form bonds that stretch out past the normal reach of what we call our "family".
We see this often with kids who join gangs, we see this often when kids fall into bad crowds, and we sometimes see it where kids become victims of Pedophiles , who molest
(Important note: not all Pedophiles molest, and most Child molesters aren't pedophiles)
As these people begin to socially branch out beyond family control ...... Sometimes they bring something bad back with them
And in that "branching out: I feel one of the family members made contact with someone who ultimately killed them all.
SO who was it?
Now before I go on I just want to say that this is my personal analysis based on studies dine by the FBI , experience as law enforcement officer, studies in forensics, and based on data gathered by large University studies done by both the Federal govt in unison,
Oh and just a heads up
I WILL NOT DEBATE ANY OF THESE POINTS, FEEL FREE TO DISAGREE WITH ANY OF THEM BUT I WILL NOT BE DRAWN INTO AN ARGUMENT BECAUSE SOMEONE DOESN'T LIKE WHAT I WRITE, FEEL FREE TO REPORT IT IF YOU FIND IT OFFENSIVE . BUT I WILL NOT BE DRAWN INTO A BACK AND FORTH WHICH DOES NOTHING TO POSSIBLY FURTHER THE CASE , (Sorry I've been down this road before here)
SO what happened?
When you analyze all of the data, the pictures, the reports, the evidence, what you can't help but notice is that the 2 blood relatives, of the only victim removed from the home, suffered the greatest amount of violence, indicating that they were the targets of "rage"
When you look at the body of Wingate, he is laying with a pillow under his chest and head , his feet are bound but his hands appear to be free, however the violence he suffered wasn't the same as the other 2 victims, he was beaten and manually strangled, but didn't have his throat slashed.
SO far we have no signs of forced entry , we have weapons procured from inside the home, we have bindings procured inside the home, we have a extremely violent crime scene with 2 victims bludgeoned and stabbed to death , one victim being killed differently than the other 2, we have , no witnesses in terms of noise, youngest children not present (Coincidence?..possibly)
Then we have a 12 yo female victim that is removed from the premises, and her remains found 3 years later and 29 miles away after an anonymous phone call .
The lack of sexual assault the absence of any type of theft , belays the motive behind these murders , and indicates that this individual did not have a sexual preference for either adolescent boys, OR adult women
In this case, you are looking at anger, anger toward the relatives of Tina, (as she’s the only one removed) perhaps with the notion of having Tina all to himself….My feeling is that this was someone who was enamored with Tina, he was known to the family, and though he sexually desired her he took on a role as some type of guardian to her.
This was an older individual (late 20's early 30's) who was comfortable with violence. he was able to gain control of 4 victims of varying ages, , which demonstrates not only a familiarity with violence, but criminal experience.
This is almost certainly a “fixated” type pedophile -This tye is an individual with a true sexual preference for children, in this case young females, he most likely has other victims as well.
Now here’s the part I refuse to Debate.. It seems that whenever you implicate a member of a family in someone's murder especially one of a child, it pisses someone off …. SO if that's you stop reading now!
There is a chance, albeit slight , that Tina may have initiated this crime, perhaps unknowingly so , by confiding in this individual that she was angry with her mother, or perhaps even wanted something to happen to her mother, .. Now it’s entirely possible this individual decided to commit this crime out of "love" and "devotion".
Now another possibility that is not out of the realm is the possible discovery of Tina being molested by this individual
However there may have been a “master plan” set forth by both to take Tina away from whatever perceived ills her family situation presented her, that Tina herself may have been aware of or even agreed to .
The covering of the mother figure, may have been to calm her down, or possibly even done by Tina herself .
I know it sounds horrible, but the evidence in this case seems to indicate that this was what happened.
So why was Tina killed ?, thats where the lines blur a bit ,
There are 3 possible narratives I feel could explain why she was killed, however, all of them depend on when she was actually killed,
If she was killed immediately after, and transported, or transported to where she was killed, it's possible the killer was in panic mode. He would most likely have to explain his sudden disappearance to those in the area where he and most likely they lived, therefore once he realized he couldn't possibly keep Tina , he had to get rid of her .
The second which I feel may be more accurate,
Because we have no indication of when Tina was actually killed, I feel that Tina was probably wrought with guilt over the killings, even though she may have knowingly or unknowingly had some influence on the crime, it's possible she grew more and more uncomfortable with the offenders growing sexual pressures, or sexual contact over time , she may have not been aware that he had a “price” he intended her to pay , her assertive attitude , may have lead her to become brazen with him , perhaps even begin to talk . He felt she became too much of a liability.
The 3rd is probably the most disturbing and sad
It’s not uncommon for these types to be involved in the production of and trading of Child pornography , sometimes on a huge scale as well, its possible that he had planned to use Tina in that manner, but after having killed her family it was way too risky to have her seen in any pictures or video , because not only would that jeopardize him, but the operation. Even amongst pedophiles, he couldn't take the risk of being identified
Kell1
Verified law enforcement
Thanks for the info, but Ill stick with my assessment, theres too many holes in the theories you listed above.
Im sure you know what you are talking about, but I surmise that if that is indeed the official "theory" of what happened..... that is why the case remains unsolved.
Makes no sense
Nov 14, 2015
Kell1
Verified law enforcement
If you're not trying to argue then perhaps you need to understand some (perhaps with experience in the field ) may feel different given their background, and what information and evidence is out there on this case.
I don't read blogs, I dont read peoples webpages, for that very reason.. usually there's a heavy dose of opinion on them, and all opinion needs is 1 person to agree with it then everyone who comes along that dare think otherwise, is out of their mind
Seen it happen a bunch of times, ..
I was also advised that Former FBI special agent John Douglas (and profiler whether or not you like him) reviewed this case, and came up with a pretty similar finding to mine .
Remember a "gut" feeling is often right, whether or not you have experience in something or not, many cases have been solved because of that very same gut feeling
I have actually seen what is referred to as staging, NOW unless the photos I was shown either 1) Were Not of the actual crime scene, or 2) Incomplete, or 3) they were altered, I don't see it with this case, as a matter of fact I don't even see anything that looks like attempted staging, at least in my experience .
If you have insider info and you know it's on point .. great, but given what info I have read, given what I have seen, and what I have access to .... I will stay to my theory
If it turns out I was wrong.. hey so be it , I was given a narrative on the story, a few pics, and a few random pieces of background info on some of the victims.
But again I will say what you are proposing raises more questions than it answers.
Now as for the vids, the design is outstanding , the 3d stuff can get confusing (moving through walls etc..) but the details were really well laid out .
So again, if you're right , hey good job, but Ill wait to see if anything ever materializes on the case.
Nov 14, 2015
And this statement from Kell1 is exactly what went wrong with the Keddie case, why so much damage has been done:
Kell1
Verified law enforcement
don't read blogs, I dont read peoples webpages, for that very reason.. usually there's a heavy dose of opinion on them, and all opinion needs is 1 person to agree with it then everyone who comes along that dare think otherwise, is out of their mind
