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Post by snoho17 on Apr 3, 2022 20:17:35 GMT
One of the things I'm returning to after the Ken Mains podcast are what we've gone over and over about Justins involvement. I spent alot of time mulling the possibility Justin saw nothing of the actual crime. I absolutely loved how this was brought up by Ken. I think Justin felt an enormous amount of pressure and guilt. And I think one of the dangers of interviewing children is their innate need to appease adults and especially authority figures. I feel Doug Thomas's biggest mistakes were taking Justin on himself and hypnotizing him. Kudos for consulting with a child phsychologist, but a phsychiatrist with trauma experience should have been the one interviewing him. Justin wanted to appease the authority figures, and they were so desperate for answers, they weren't listening with discerining ears. As proof of this, we have Justin changing his descriptions to fit the evidence. That being said, one way or another Justin saw the crime scene. And now I'm going to circle back to the lack of "care" Johnny recieved. One speculation I threw out is because John was the initial target of rage, he wasn't "cared for". But thinking now on Justin...If he did walk out into the aftermath, tried to help Sue and couldn't then covered her. Then tried to care for Dana. Johnny threw rocks and bullied Justin. Maybe thats why he didn't "care". Just a thought. But...we just don't see anyway Justin could have interacted with the crime scene and not transfered some of it onto him, right? Could he have washed off in the bathroom? Taken off a sweatshirt maybe? There's just too much going on here!
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Post by snoho17 on Apr 3, 2022 20:20:20 GMT
Or did one of the killers cover Sue and not Justin? Someone felt the need to degrade Sue by shoving panties in her mouth and someone felt the need to cover her out of remorse, to preserve her dignity? could that person be one in the same?
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Post by Hope on Apr 3, 2022 23:35:48 GMT
Excellent post snoho! I feel you summed things up really well regarding Justin and children's desire to help adults. You can see this in his interview from the composite sketch and how he basically agrees by saying "uh huh" throughout the entire thing. I feel for Justin & the tremendous weight placed on his shoulders.
Good point about Johnny & Justin as well. But yeah, hard to believe Justin could have done those things without getting blood on himself. Doug Thomas said Justin had zero blood on him that morning. Ricky said he left his cabin that morning with only the pajamas he had been sleeping in.
I've been thinking of a combination of something you said, something Ken said & previous discussions we've had here that could all fit together. Ken's suggestion that the cushion was introduced to quiet Dana. We've talked about Dana breaking free, the strangulation via chokehold, j&d being bound together as means of immobilization & being rolled so that they were closer together to accomplish this. The fact Dana could have been first but Johnny was a scrapper & likely to put up a struggle, yet he didn't, as if he didn't see it coming. Dana on the other hand had broken his tape bindings, the scream heard was said to be from a male, this may have been Dana & what caused Sue to come out into the living room, after there was a substantial amount of blood from J and/or D. The electrical cords were introduced because things had escalated and the tape wasn't enough because Dana had broken free.
So putting it all together: Johnny was first, causing Dana to break his tape bindings & yell out. He's then severely injured by the blunt force trauma. Sue comes out, runs to one of the boys. One of the men have to control Sue. To silence Dana, the cushion in grabbed and thrown on the floor. Dana is rolled over, placed faced down on the cushion and strangled via chokehold from behind/suspect on top of him. To ensure Dana isn't going to attempt to get up/away again and because now Sue is involved & requires their attention, the extension cord is used to tie him to Johnny. If by some chance he wakes back up, he is going to be able to go anywhere with Johnny weight attached to him. Poor Sue at this point, and all that is done to her.
It doesn't explain the blanket which I wish we knew more about besides being told "it was Justin". What proof is there in regards to this claim?
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Post by kmik on Apr 4, 2022 0:04:13 GMT
Okay here's where things aren't really clear as far as Justin. On the day of the murders he said he was asleep and didn't hear/see anything, but he went home and told his family things about the murders so his mom had DT interview him where he admitted to it being a dream but then no it wasn't a dream it was real - no more talk of sleeping through the murders.
A lot of pressure has been put on Justin because he put himself in the position to have possible answers and that was all LE had to go on. It's possible LE thought he was holding back because of his ever changing stories so they continued to question him and I think they should have. I just don't see Justin as a little weak sensitive kid wanting to please LE - I think he had to tell them something after his mom told DT that he did not sleep through the murders.
Good thought on caring for Johnny and he obviously did know Johnny from being around Ricky and Tina. And if anyone had any blood on them they had plenty of time to wash up in the cabin, outside water faucet, or down by the river. We do not have a report on what Justin and Ricky had been wearing that day and if LE retrieved their clothes.
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Post by snoho17 on Apr 4, 2022 2:27:09 GMT
"To silence Dana, the cushion in grabbed and thrown on the floor. Dana is rolled over, placed faced down on the cushion and strangled via chokehold from behind/suspect on top of him." So this would definitely change the way I look at what's different between their treatment, having always thought Sue was the only one silenced. This leaves John out in this respect and groups Dana more with Sue. (Rambling trying to hash stuff out). Kmik you could be absolutely right on Justin, but I always thought there was something hinky about the broken window story Marilyn told. I couldn't believe he was "just that honest all of the time", but rather he was intimidated by older males in a position of power. I'm sure Marilyn believed it, just not sure that was the truth.
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Post by snoho17 on Apr 25, 2023 6:35:01 GMT
Here's a thought, we've noticed some things that made us/me believe there was a left handed person involved. In fact we learned that law enforcement took particular note of Marde's left handedness. IFF Dana was asphyxiated via chokehold, I'm guessing his autopsy report would suggest a right handed person causing the injuries?
"in the midline of the neck, show a large sized area of
hemorrhage in the musculature over the thyroid cartilage, predominantly on the
left side but partially on the right."
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Post by Hope on Apr 25, 2023 13:10:40 GMT
Wow, good observation! So, if the strangulation occurred from behind the greater damage to the left side could suggest a left handed person? Or if from the front that could suggest a right handed person? Either way, that information has to be something useful for MEs/investigators?
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Post by snoho17 on Apr 25, 2023 20:07:20 GMT
Actually I'm thinking being choked from behind by a right handed person would cause more damage to the left side. The forearm would have greater force across a smaller area, and the right side of the neck would be "nestled" in the meatier bicep that wasn't excreting any force. So in theory of we have two killers of different "handedness", we know the right handed one choked Dana
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Post by Hope on Apr 25, 2023 20:46:58 GMT
Oops, that was a typo on my part. Thinking the same front could equal left handed, behind right handed person as you explained. Sorry bout that!
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Post by Hope on Apr 25, 2023 21:43:50 GMT
There was something else Justin said which could match with your hypothesis here. I checked Justin's statements 3x and could not find the exact report I was looking for. Perhaps you remember or can find it.
In a report he said one man killed two of the victims and the other man killed one of the victims.
I believe he said Johnny & Sue were killed by the same man and Dana killed by the second suspect. I will keep looking to confirm. This also rang true because of the similarities between Johnny & Sue + differences with Dana.
While searching for this a couple things from Justin's statements stood out. According to Justin, it sounds as if the dark haired suspect was the ringleader. In early interviews he says this is the man who cut Johnny. Also the one who struck Dana when he attempted to flee to the kitchen. This man was not large. He was in-between johnny and Dana in height, so relatively short. He was the older of the two, about 32 years old according to Justin. This man said Sue's name. In Justin's 5-19-81 interview with Dr. Dash he says this is the man who also cut Sue in the chest and was the one to say Sue's name.
The second suspect, blonde hair, was 8-12" taller than suspect #1 and Dana. Younger than suspect #1. Based on Justin's statements, he appears to be more of the follower.
I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for, but putting the rest together it appears Justin claimed the brown hair guy killed Johnny & Sue. He was also the one to tie up j&D. That leaves Justin claiming blonde hair suspect #2 as killing Dana. Which would fit the evidence and your theory.
ETA: According to Dana's autopsy report he was about 5' 10". Johnny's height is not included in the transcribed version of his autopsy report. This would make suspect #1/brown hair suspect shorter than 5' 10" which is relatively small for an adult male. On the other hand, he has suspect #2 being 8-12" taller. That would make quite the tall man. Lol. Perhaps estimating was off because Justin was a child. If there is truth to his statement it's safe to say the description of suspect #1 is accurate and he was taller than Johnny but shorter than Dana. Suspect #2 was taller than everyone else
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Post by Hope on Apr 25, 2023 22:19:09 GMT
This ^ made me wonder Steven H and Monty's heights compared to one another. They certainly match the composite sketches and Mrs. A's informant report regarding their behavior that night cannor be ignored - link: keddietruth.freeforums.net/board/107/stevenAnyway, according to Howard's mugshot he was just over 6' 0" tall in 1975. Monty's height is unknown unfortunately. Does anyone out there happen to know if he was taller or shorter than 6' 0"??
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Post by snoho17 on Apr 26, 2023 5:28:55 GMT
I do recall what your saying about Justin's statement, and will keep an eye out. Also, I'm so glad you brought up the heights of the "suspects", that never sat right.... I do recall a very tall man being around Keddie at the time, he stood out. But IIRC he was very large in general like 6'6 but also really solidly built, hefty like. I think it was the Hobo who traded his hammer to someone, said he used it to "knock heads", I believe this was supposed to have occurred prior to the murders. But yeah, Justins description would have put that assailant at between 6'6 and 6'8. And like you, I think IFF he did see this guy, he was off on the height. I want to say Johnny was around 5'3 give or take, I swear I've seen it before.
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Post by Hope on Apr 26, 2023 13:32:21 GMT
Yes, you're right! That hammer hobo was a big guy. That story is interesting too. Something that deserves a little more attention, not blown off as "busy work bs". So this guy is known to hang around Keddie, comes across a hammer somewhere (Marty's porch lol?), threatens to knock people with it, then following the murders he no longer has hammer? Threw it in the pond lol?
Based on the original investigation and crime scene I do believe all the weapons came from 28. However, a story like this can't just be ignored
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Post by Hope on Apr 26, 2023 13:38:05 GMT
All that is known about the hobo with the hammer:
When was he a psychiatrist patient? During the murders? Or after?? Big difference, details matter. Definitive connections to Butte County....
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Post by Hope on Apr 28, 2023 7:09:19 GMT
Check out the height of the guy Doug A. describes when shown the composite sketches on 4/16/81. Another mention of blue 56-57 truck again.
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