Post by Hope on Apr 9, 2022 19:11:18 GMT
1981-04-14 Martin Smartt Interview Transcript
TEXT VERSION OF THE ABOVE TRANSCRIPT
Martin Smart Interview April, 1981, Keddie, CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Crim: This is a taped interview of Martin Smartt, Smartt, what's your address?
Smartt: Box 302.
Crim: Box 302, Keddie, and your cabin number?
Smartt: 26.
Crim: Cabin #26. By special agents, Harry Bradley and P.A. Crim, Jr. This interview is been conducted in a Banquet room of the Keddie Resort Hotel and the time is approximately 11:25 a.m. Do you have a middle name, Martin?
Smartt: Ray
Crim: Ray?
Smartt: Ya
Bradley: Cause I told you before Mike put the tape on, you're aware of what happened over there?
Smartt: Oh, ya
Bradley: At least you know something bad happened, what we want to do, we've been interviewing people throughout the resort, especially those of the kids were pals. The kids were there and everything else. And we understood from the Sheriff that you and John, come down, your wife come down to the bar, close proximity where this thing occurred, so
we'd just kind of like to go over those events with you.
Smartt: O.K.
Bradley: The times and what you saw and what you heard and that type of thing. The reason we asked John, cause sometimes if you hear him, that will put an idea in your head, you know.
Smartt: Right, I realize that.
Bradley: O.K., so we just want your ideas of what you saw or heard and so forth.
Bradley: On Saturday, this past Saturday, could you tell us what time and who came down to the bar with you?
Smartt: O.K., we left our house about 10:00, my wife, myself and John and ah, we kept, we were around the bar until about 1:00, like I say it wasn't real crowded but it was You know, fairly crowded that night, and it was, I didn't really notice anything unusual except for one person, one individual came in about oh, I'd say 10:30 or 11:00 that I'd never seen before and nearly the rest of the people you know.
Bradley: You know most of the people in the bar?
Smartt: well, mainly the people that come and go in this area.
Bradley: Right.
Smartt: But you live here awhile and you see em. I used to work in the restaurant here and I become familiar with a lot of the customers and that one individual you know, just the way he carried himself, he looked like trouble. He looked out of place for that type of establishment, is what I mean. He was in a t-shirt and levi's and wearing a buck knife, extremely long hair ah, ('See Spang' is written in pencil beside this quote)
Bradley: I wonder if we can turn that thing down here (referring to the background music) Back on the tape.
O.K., we were talking about the first time on Saturday night you were in the bar and about 10:30 or 11:00 a guy came in. You were starting to describe him for us.
Smartt: Ya, like I say about 5' 7", 5' 8“, extremely long hair, it was tied in a pony tail and the individual didn't look like he belonged in the Back Door Lounge, ya know, it wasn't the type of clientele that they cater to, but he left shortly thereafter. He walked down, sat at the
bar where we were, well we went back into the little dance area and went back out and left. As far as I know I didn't see, notice the guy again. That's the only person I saw that looked unusual, you know, out of place that night.
Bradley: He a white man?
Smartt: Ya
Bradley: About how old?
Smartt: I'd say early 20's. 24 or 25.
Bradley: Did he have any face hair?
Smartt: Mustache, dark heavy mustache and his hair was dark brown and of course it was dark in there, I couldn't, I didn't, pay enough attention to him to get a lot of description
but I did know he had a mustache but no beard.
Crim: But a heavy mustache?
Smartt: Ya
Bradley: was it a foo-man-chu type, down below the lip?
Smartt: Oh, kind of like mine, that's all that was there, you know but it was heavy, brushy and hair down almost to his waist, that long, tied in a pony tail so that's why he stood out,
ya know spotted like that in a crowd, where there's usually nobody with that long hair ·
Bradley: was that a white t—shirt or what?
Smartt: I don't remember, like I said, it was dark and I didn't really pay close attention to the guy.
Bradley: Levis on?
Smartt: Levis and a t-shirt.
Bradley; And he had a buck knife?
Smart: One of the buck knives with a flap over the top of it.
Bradley: Folding type.
Smartt: Ya, that you wear on your belt.
Bradley: who was the bartender out there that night?
Smartt: Let' see, Jack was workin, guy that runs the place, and a girl, I don't know who the girl was.
Bradley: The guy that runs the place, what's his name?
Smartt: Jack
Bradley: Jack? O.K., he was the bartender and also running it, and there was a girl there?
Smartt: Ya, there was another girl tending bar and then a waitress.
Bradley: You don't know their names?
Smartt: I don't know em.
Bradley: How many customers do you think was in there between the time frame.
Smartt: 30
Bradley: Was there that many?
smartt: 30 at one time.
Bradley: You're talking about a period over 3 hrs. where the crowd would fluctuate?
Smartt: Ya, about 30—35
Bradley: So, at the most there was 30-35?
Smartt: Ya, only other thing like I say, some guy came in about 1:00, and bought a case of beer at those prices.
Bradley: At what prices.
Smartt: At bar prices, which I thought was unusual, I didn't recognize him. He had short hair.
Crim: How old a guy was he?
Smartt: Oh, late 20's early 30's. And I didn't notice much about him, I said it must he a hell of a party ya know, paying $3.00 & $3.50 a 6-pack.
Crim: Ya, that'a a little exorbitant.
Bradley: Would you say he's of age?
Smartt: Ya, he was of age. He was a tall fellow, I'd say ah, oh, 6' 1", 6' -2", taller than I am, and that's why I noticed him, like I say, I didn't really.
Bradley: He had short hair huh?
Smartt: Ya, close, no longer than mine. I didn't, give him enough looking, to tell you, I think his hair was curly and that's just about all to the end of that gentlemen. I just can't think of anybody else that looked out of place enough that I would, ya know, take note of it.
Bradley: Just those two huh?
Crim: You say it was about what time?
Smartt: That was about 1:00 when he came in.
Bradley: Was the same bar tender still working there?
Smartt: Ya, Jack was still on and I think the girls that was working the bar helped him. Cause at the time I was talkin to Doug Albin, one of the owners here and
Bradley: Was that around 1:00 when you were talking to Doug?
Smartt: Ya, it was around there, and then I noticed this guy come in and get the beer
Bradley: Who? Doug what?
Smartt: Albin, he's one of the owners.
Bradley: So Doug was there also?
Smartt: Ya
Bradley: They were there right up till closing, close to it.
Smartt: And ah, we went home at 1:00, I put my wife to bed. And John and I came back to get a night cap.
Bradley: Was there any reason you went home?
Smart: Ya, well, the owner, Doug Albin's wife came down, we like Country Music, the guy that was playing music was playing country music, she came down and insisted on playing, started playing rock and roll. So, we got up and left for that reason and ah, then I came, I came back down, actually to have a night cap and lodge a complaint with the owner of the bar ya know, told the guy that runs the bar about having somebody that really doesn't have any authority down there to come in and order what can and can't be played, which we did.
Bradley: That was Doug's wife that changed the music on you?
Smartt: Ya, but ah, we had one drink and ah, then, ya know, it was last call so it must have been oh, I'd say ten or fifteen minutes before 2:00. Then we walked back home.
Bradley: But the first time you left at 1:00, how did you go home, what direction did you take?
Smartt: Up around the lodge, then straight up the road. The same way all three times.
Bradley: So you walked right past the
Smartt: Right past the fence.
Bradley: The victims house?
Smartt: Uh huh.
Bradley: O.K., now, we'd like you to really tune in on, at that time. Did you see anything unusual at that point, any lights on in the house? Anybody standing around talking?
Any cars?
Smartt: We were involved in a conversation as we were walking.
Bradley: Uh huh
Bradley: O.K., now, we'd like you to really tune in on, at that time. Did you see anything unusual at that point, any lights on in the house? Anybody standing around talking?
Any cars?
Smartt: We were involved in a conversation as we were walking.
Bradley: Uh huh
Smartt: There was no cars parked on the street but, I would have noticed that and ah, the only thing I thought it was unusually dark in the area, there's usually a light in there somewhere, I can't recall exactly where the light is located, but there's usually a light in there shining, and it wasn't on.
Bradley: You mean in that row of houses.
Smartt: Ya, in the area, should be a street light in there, I did't notice but I thought it was awful dark in the area. But ah, like I say, we were involved in a conversation and we really didn't pay any attention but
Bradley: That's understandable.
Smartt: And likewise, when we came back it was oh, ten minutes later, we had enough time to take off our, we were wearing three pieces, so we had enough time to take off our jacket and vest and then put our jackets back on, came back down and ah, once again, we were in conversation, I can't think of anything at all during that period, we came back down, that was out of place.
Bradley: How long do you think you were home?
Smartt: Maximum of 10 minutes.
Bradley: Did you do anything at home during that time?
Smartt: Well, I changed and I called the guy at the bar and told him, I said you just lost several customers over lettin somebody switch the music and he says, well he, you know,
he, the bartender was concerned, don't be mad at me, come on back down, ya know, so we went back down and show good faith that we weren't mad at him. But, we must have got back down there oh, 1:15. We had about enough time to get one drink, before the bar closed.
Bradley: What time do they normally close? 1:30 or 2:00?
Smartt: Two-ish on Saturday.
Bradley: So you figure your got back there around 1:15, or l:30?
Smartt: 1:15 or so, we had about enough time to drink one drink, which, about a half hour. must have been, oh, I'd say 1:45 when we left there and started back up. And, again, cuttin up jackpots and talking.
Bradley: Did you go back the same way again?
Smartt: Ya, same route.
Bradley: Nothing new either.
Smartt: Nothin, no, I'm a Vietnam Veteran, anything odd or unusual at all going on, I'm going to pick up on it right away, I, out of habit anymore. Ya, I'm going to pick up on
anything unusual, if I even have to catch somebody's glance.
Crim: Your senses are still pretty keen, then?
Smart: Ya, even with the 4 or 5 beers I had in me, I would have noticed anything that would have stuck out, the same way, ya know, if you could make all the racket you want in
the house and I can be asleep, but one unnatural sound, sound, and I'm up like that, ya know, like the door open, any unnatural sound at night time, like John fell off the couch, woke me right up, Friday night.
Crim: About what time did you go to bed?
Smartt: I went to bed about ten after two. After, well, we keep the medicine put up because of the kids, I had to get John's medicine out, and I gave him two phenobarbitals, and a delantin, two phenobarbitals and two delantins, to go to bed on. That's what the doctor prescribed.
Bradley: Every night he has to take that?
Smartt: Ya. Once he's out, that's it, ya know.
Crim: Then you went to bed.
Smartt: Then I went to bed and woke up again around 3:00, stoke the fire.
Crim: Nothing unusual woke you up, you just...
Smartt: Matter of habit. I always wake up around 3:00 or 3:30, stoke the fire. I got up, ya know, checked the house, and ah, stoked the fire, and ah, matter of fact, I opened the door and went outside and got a piece of wood, came back in, I didn't notice anything.
Crim: Just nice and quiet?
Smartt: Quiet, as a matter a fact, usually about that time, a train is going by, I didn't notice the train, then go to sleep. Very peaceful and quiet, I can't think of anything.
Bradley: Of that crowd that was in the bar, those two were the only ones looked out of place?
Smartt: He was a short husky guy, muscle guy.
Bradley: The guy with the real long hair, he was short and husky?
Smartt: Yea, he was about 5'6, 5'7.
Bradley: You've never seen him before?
Smartt: I've never seen him before.
Crim: Did you notice anything unusual about the vehicles parked?
Smartt: When we first approached, there was two hippie-type guys comin out and gettin in a pickup truck, think it was a Ford, but I didn't pay any attention.
Bradley: Pickup?
Smartt: Yeah, it was a pickup. I did notice it was a pickup truck, but ah, I didn't notice any particulars, except that they were shoddy dressing, ya know, dressed shoddy, and dirty, long hair, beard…
Bradley: Do you feel most of them were Keddie residents?
Smartt: Well, clientele, few Keddie residents go to the bar because...
Bradley: Cause of the prices?
Smartt: Ya, well, most of the people around here are pretty poor.
Bradley: There it's probably a buck a bottle.
Smartt: Yeah. Average $1.00 probably for the beer, $1.50 for drinks. Few Keddie residents that just frequent the bar, they come, you know, like I do, once in a blue moon. Yeah.
Crim: All go down and have a couple or so, so close.
Smartt: Yeah. Right. If the car had been running we would have went to town.
Bradley: Were you, uh, I'm not trying to make a drunk out of you or anything, but did you have enough to drink to where you would consider yourself, uh, not having your faculties
about you?
Smartt: No. A matter of fact I know exactly how much I had to drink. I drank four beers. And 2 cokes. John drank all cokes.
Crim: That was between 10 and l?
Smartt: Yeah.
Crim: Yeah.
Bradley: That hardly going to get you, hard core...
Crim: Ho Ho Ho
Bradley: You ought to have been pretty alert.
Smartt: Yeah. I was, I was, you know, pretty well had all my senses about me. John drank cokes until we came back and then had a double shot of CC. That's all he had.
Crim: He probably, was he limiting his drinking pretty much?
Smartt: Yeah. He has to.
Crim: With all the medicine and everything?
Smartt: Yeah. If he takes more than two drinks and then takes those two pills, then you can't move him with a crowbar.
Bradley: That bad, uh.
Smartt: Well once he takes his medicine, that's it for him anyway.
Crim: He is out, and gone until morning?
Smartt: Well he can hardly even walk after that medicine is in.
Bradley: Was your wife still in the sack when you got back? In bed?
Smartt: Yeah, when I got home she was just gone, slept right through.
Crim: Let's go, let's go ahead with the next morning. Sunday morning. The time that Justin came, do you have any idea?
Smartt: It had to have been around 10 or l0:30. I was still in bed, I'm a deadhead. The reason I know about it, is he came in, somebody, you know, uh, Sue and Mickey, er Sue
and Johnny had been killed, murdered. I thought, you know, don't come in and tell that kind of joke, it's not funny. He said, I'm not kidding man, look out the window. And sure enough, there was police all over the place. And he started in with the details and I stopped him because I got an eight year old son there. I said, hey, don’t go into details. We don't want to hear all the gory stuff, you know, skip it, because I didn't want the young kid to hear it. So I hushed him up and uh, little kids all over the whole neighborhood coming, and ah ya know, the wife was naturally upset.
Bradley: Ya, I imagine so.
Smartt: You bet.
Smartt: So, she went over to find out, you know, what she could. And I went over and told Doug basically what I told you, you know. I went by twice, and it was well three times,
actually four times in the process of the night, and I hadn't noticed anything out of place.
Crim: Is there anything unusual occur with Justin that daythat you can recollect?
Smartt: Justin's behavior became very eratic. He kept wanting to go back over around the area where the crime had taken place. He uh, he wanted to go to the Seabolts, of all places. You know, usually if they are going to go play they go to the pond. But they wanted to go to the Seabolts right next door. I told him to stay around the house, don't go nowhere. I was concerwed, I didn't want him in the way, and I didn't want him around that type of atmosphere. so he insisted on playing in a tree right out at the edge of the driveway, so he was right close to what all was going on. You know. And his behavior has been erratic since then.
Crim: You say erratic, could you go into some kind of detail about how or?
Smartt: I was gone all day yesterday was in Reno , but these reports I get, he's very hyper. You know, won't, hard to keep settled down. Uh, picks on his little brother. Almost like he was enjoying it, you know. Uh, hurting his little brother, picking on him, uh, periods of re-
fusing to eat, uh. You know.
Bradley: Of course that was quite an experience for the kid, you
Smartt: Yeah, oh yeah. Just strange behavior. He's just not himself. He's beside himself, his behavior, you know. That's another thing I really don‘t know how to deal with there.
Bradley: Our problem now, is sorting out fact from fiction with all the kids.
Smartt: Yeah.
Bradley: You know, the kids his age.
Crim: Very difficult to talk to kids.
Bradley: And they talk to each other, and they hear something and christ, before you can finish, you don't know if they are imagining half the things, or they have actually seen something or if they are talking about something they heard. And there is a pack of kids
around this place.
Crim: Did he, at any time during his behavior or anything, try to recreate that crime or anything?
Smartt: Yes, yes he has. He tried to recreate it with his little brother, yesterday over there, and uh, the wife watched him. watched him go through it. And he‘s telling Casey, you know, to hold his arm like he had a knife trying to stab it. But from what I understand, the people were killed with a hammer, after that they were stabbed, so I get the feeling there that he was just, you know, play-acting his little creation. It seems unusual that he knew so much about the condition of inside of the house and he was suppose to have been
asleep, you know?
Crim: Was he in a position....
Smartt: Now that...'excuse me.
Crim: Was he in a position, did you observe him in a position the following morning over around the Seabolts where if the deputies had left the door opened for a moment or
two that he could have looked in there and seen the female?
Smartt: No. The security over there was so tight, that it was just...
Crim: What do you mean?
Smartt: No way could he have accidentally glimpsed in and seen anything because the security was really tightened down at the time. Uh, these are some of the things, you know, I wonder about. You know, whether or not he did see anything.
Crim: Do you feel that there is a big possibility he could have?
Smartt: Justin is a very light sleeper. I, often times he‘s gotten up when I was, like I said, I stoke the fire at about 3:30.
Crim: Uh huh.
Smartt: And uh, often times he's been awaken by me stoking the fire and got up and went to the bathroom during that period of time. And I know that he does sleep light. And he does have trouble goingr to sleep sometimes.
Seems to me that under an excitable period such as what they are under, that, you know, 10, laying in bed with your buddy giggling and this and that. There is a very high possibility that he could have been awake or alerted to something unusual in that house. And he
is quiet enough to where he could have noticed something without me detecting him.
Bradley: If you've got, you know, we're no more better equipped with imagination than you are probably. And I'm sure you have thought about this a lot. Kicked it around in your head and wondered what's happened over there and why and all this type of thing, so just like we are doing.
Smartt: Yeah.
Bradley: Uh, the fact that, uh, that they were in there, and the persons who did this, person or persons, we don't know, why didn't they bother those kids?
Smartt: It's overkill, you know. For one, this is, if it was, I know if I was going to kill somebody, I'd go in, blam, blam, blam and get going. I mean, there is no sense in
going any further than that. You go in and you do what has to be done. Make sure the job is done right, and get goin. Uh, there would be no sense in beatin them or mutilate them or anything like that. Uh, the person that would go that far, why didn't he hurt those other kids?
Bradley: Yeah, that's of course something we've been trying to find out.
Smartt: Maybe he didn't know that they were there. Maybe he didn't think to look in that bedroom. But if I want to kill somebody, I‘m going to check out the whole house, right?
Bradley: Yeah, I would imagine. -
Crim: Yeah and then of course we've got the other factors involved, we've got the girl missing.
Smartt: The girl missing. Right.
Bradley: why did he snatch the girl?
Smartt: I was thinking, ok, I know this girl is the father's favorite kid. Who I've never met. This is what I've heard from a few conversations, that he is supposed to been in Connecticut, so they said. Well maybe the father, maybe the boys tried to stop him, so he had to take them out too because or maybe the boys walked in on something. And he took them out because of that. Uh, before they realized who it was, we entertained the thought that maybe it was Dana that did it? Because he is suppose to be mentally disturbed. Both of the boys were experimenting with drugs. This is a known fact.
Bradley: What kind of drugs, just weed or?
Smartt: Weed, uh, stuff like that. Maybe a few pills, I don't know. I, I'm at an age, being in the situation, going to school, I'm at an age where I get both ends of the grapevine, you know. You know these people 40ish, 50ish years old, and the same time I'm on what 15 and 16 year olds are doing in the neighborhood, right on down to 8.
Bradley: Yeah, yeah, you are better equipped then we are at that, and I'm not so naive to think most teenagers, hell, they screw around with weed, you know.
Smartt: Yeah, right.
Bradley: But if they were into heavy drugs, I don't know, it would be bean or something like that, it could be a drug related rip off, I don't know.
Smartt: This is the thing now. One boy, some son and a son Dana have to get drugs somewhere. This is only logical right?
Bradley: But they use a gun.
Smartt: Ah, I'd entertained that thought. With a hit, because they'd ya know, ah, but then why the overkill?
Bradley: Yeah.
Smartt: Ah, I don't know, I'd like to see the hammer, I‘ve been in Sue's house. The only hammer I ever knew that come out of there was a wooden-handIed one. Ah, my hammer
Bradley: Is it?
Smartt: It always layed outside the door. I've searched and I haven't found it.
Bradley: What kind of hammer did you have?
Smartt: A blue handled hammer.
Bradley: Blue handled, silver or metal handle?
Smartt: Metal handle, ya. I haven't noticed it layin about, so we can't, I thought of that this morning, ya know, cause this guy come right by my house, ya know, geez if that was true, he would have picked up my hammer, why in hell not my hatchet, a lot better. So, ya know, I keep thinkin how, why, how could it be done. In and out without somebody noticing, ah, the kid, ya know, a vehicle, a truck, something, if you'll pull in while hiding, you would have had to pass the Seabolts house, there's other people living back in there too.
Bradley: Yah
Smartt: If he'd walked in, how could he carry that girl out, without her raisin all kinds of hell unless She was unconscious, and which way would he have went, the bridge across the
creek down here is locked
Bradley: It is at night?
Smartt: It's locked period. I don't know why but there's no way you could have crossed that bridge and got on the other side of the creek.
Crim: What's that, a swinging bridge or something?
Smartt: Yah, ah, this road here, hell, if you're goin out this way, and unless he was in a vehicle, it would have been surely noticed, that leaves only one point of exit and that's the railroad track. Ah, then you're still in awe, there's a lot of big dogs and stuff up in there
that would have raised hell, stranger goin by
Crim: These are all good points you're making.
Smartt: Uh, by my house, ahh, about the back way, that way, the next door neighbor's dog would have raised hell, uh the Emerson's dog in their back yard, I would have noticed that.
Bradley: Do they normally bark at...
Smartt: At anything that moves around there of a nighttime. Because I have to call the dog when I come in. They bark anytime something goes by over there, either way. Uh, like I say, the girls aren't here across the way and that house has a big collie dog that barks at strangers.
Crim: Is that the house right below the Seabolts?
Smartt: Yeah. On the other side.
Bradley: If somebody had come in and parked behind the victims house....
Smartt: Her dog would have raised hell, it would seem like. If they'd got out, you know?
Bradley: Yeah.
Smartt: Anywhere close. But they could have pulled in and parked behind the vietim's house and nobody would have noticed. Beeause you can't see it from the street.
You can't see that area from the street.
Bradley: No. There's a lot of area down there.
Smartt: Yeah. And it is all dark. Unfortunately the whole area is dark and uh, but, still in all, as, like I say, how would you get this kid out? Unless she was unconscious?
Bradley: I don't, you've got the same thought that I have.
Crim: Yeah. We're wondering the same damn thing, you know. How could a
Smartt: Yeah. And if the guy was a nut, and he went to that much trouble to do the overkill, could it be possible he overlooked those boys?
Crim: Well, it's possible.
Bradley: It's possible, but why?
Smartt: If you are nutty enough to go to that much trouble you'd think, uh, he'd make a mass out of the thing. Get 'em all.
Bradley: Fortunately he didn't.
Smartt: Yeah. Very fortunately. But, uh, why?
Bradley: We've got a bad enough mess now.
Smartt: Why would he have taped the hands this way and, and...
Crim: Do you think that, uh, if Justin submitted to hypnosis that it might help him? To think something else that he might be consciously, you know, keeping out of his
mind?
Smartt: I don't know. I don't know. I keep thinking myself, gee, you know, I'm very concerned about these kids. You know, now that I talk to you guys I see that you are not the kind of guys that says, ok, you know, the bright light and the whole bit, But uh, I'm very concerned. I went to see Doug the first thing this morning, very concerned because
it created very serious health problems.
Bradley: Yeah. Sure.
Smartt: Like pressure.
Crim: Yeah, I can relate to that.
Smartt: I'm, uh, I'm under kinda semi-treatment for, you know, stress, anxiety myself, and I certainly don't need this you know, and uh...
Crim: You've got a lot of problems at home, uh? Your wife?
Smartt: Yeah.
Crim: We have, we can certainly appreciate that.
Smartt: Been separated. Just, you know, back and forth, on and off.
Crim: If that's, if that's a tactic that, after we've talked to the Sheriff or something, and everybody feels it might be benificial would you have any particular objections to that?
Smartt: Uh, yes and no. I've got reservations, but not particular objections, you know. Like I say, uh, I am concerned about the kid. I don't want to put any mental stress on him that
would make him get more erratic than he is now.
Crim: Yeah.
Smartt: My concern there is strictly for his health.
Crim: Yeah, we can certainly understand that.
Smartt: If there is any way at all you think you could, you could get more information from him, uh, there's a good possiblity, that Justin could have been alerted, maybe just froze ya know.
Crim: That would be a hell of a shock to anybody let alone a little kid you know.
TEXT VERSION OF THE ABOVE TRANSCRIPT
Martin Smart Interview April, 1981, Keddie, CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Crim: This is a taped interview of Martin Smartt, Smartt, what's your address?
Smartt: Box 302.
Crim: Box 302, Keddie, and your cabin number?
Smartt: 26.
Crim: Cabin #26. By special agents, Harry Bradley and P.A. Crim, Jr. This interview is been conducted in a Banquet room of the Keddie Resort Hotel and the time is approximately 11:25 a.m. Do you have a middle name, Martin?
Smartt: Ray
Crim: Ray?
Smartt: Ya
Bradley: Cause I told you before Mike put the tape on, you're aware of what happened over there?
Smartt: Oh, ya
Bradley: At least you know something bad happened, what we want to do, we've been interviewing people throughout the resort, especially those of the kids were pals. The kids were there and everything else. And we understood from the Sheriff that you and John, come down, your wife come down to the bar, close proximity where this thing occurred, so
we'd just kind of like to go over those events with you.
Smartt: O.K.
Bradley: The times and what you saw and what you heard and that type of thing. The reason we asked John, cause sometimes if you hear him, that will put an idea in your head, you know.
Smartt: Right, I realize that.
Bradley: O.K., so we just want your ideas of what you saw or heard and so forth.
Bradley: On Saturday, this past Saturday, could you tell us what time and who came down to the bar with you?
Smartt: O.K., we left our house about 10:00, my wife, myself and John and ah, we kept, we were around the bar until about 1:00, like I say it wasn't real crowded but it was You know, fairly crowded that night, and it was, I didn't really notice anything unusual except for one person, one individual came in about oh, I'd say 10:30 or 11:00 that I'd never seen before and nearly the rest of the people you know.
Bradley: You know most of the people in the bar?
Smartt: well, mainly the people that come and go in this area.
Bradley: Right.
Smartt: But you live here awhile and you see em. I used to work in the restaurant here and I become familiar with a lot of the customers and that one individual you know, just the way he carried himself, he looked like trouble. He looked out of place for that type of establishment, is what I mean. He was in a t-shirt and levi's and wearing a buck knife, extremely long hair ah, ('See Spang' is written in pencil beside this quote)
Bradley: I wonder if we can turn that thing down here (referring to the background music) Back on the tape.
O.K., we were talking about the first time on Saturday night you were in the bar and about 10:30 or 11:00 a guy came in. You were starting to describe him for us.
Smartt: Ya, like I say about 5' 7", 5' 8“, extremely long hair, it was tied in a pony tail and the individual didn't look like he belonged in the Back Door Lounge, ya know, it wasn't the type of clientele that they cater to, but he left shortly thereafter. He walked down, sat at the
bar where we were, well we went back into the little dance area and went back out and left. As far as I know I didn't see, notice the guy again. That's the only person I saw that looked unusual, you know, out of place that night.
Bradley: He a white man?
Smartt: Ya
Bradley: About how old?
Smartt: I'd say early 20's. 24 or 25.
Bradley: Did he have any face hair?
Smartt: Mustache, dark heavy mustache and his hair was dark brown and of course it was dark in there, I couldn't, I didn't, pay enough attention to him to get a lot of description
but I did know he had a mustache but no beard.
Crim: But a heavy mustache?
Smartt: Ya
Bradley: was it a foo-man-chu type, down below the lip?
Smartt: Oh, kind of like mine, that's all that was there, you know but it was heavy, brushy and hair down almost to his waist, that long, tied in a pony tail so that's why he stood out,
ya know spotted like that in a crowd, where there's usually nobody with that long hair ·
Bradley: was that a white t—shirt or what?
Smartt: I don't remember, like I said, it was dark and I didn't really pay close attention to the guy.
Bradley: Levis on?
Smartt: Levis and a t-shirt.
Bradley; And he had a buck knife?
Smart: One of the buck knives with a flap over the top of it.
Bradley: Folding type.
Smartt: Ya, that you wear on your belt.
Bradley: who was the bartender out there that night?
Smartt: Let' see, Jack was workin, guy that runs the place, and a girl, I don't know who the girl was.
Bradley: The guy that runs the place, what's his name?
Smartt: Jack
Bradley: Jack? O.K., he was the bartender and also running it, and there was a girl there?
Smartt: Ya, there was another girl tending bar and then a waitress.
Bradley: You don't know their names?
Smartt: I don't know em.
Bradley: How many customers do you think was in there between the time frame.
Smartt: 30
Bradley: Was there that many?
smartt: 30 at one time.
Bradley: You're talking about a period over 3 hrs. where the crowd would fluctuate?
Smartt: Ya, about 30—35
Bradley: So, at the most there was 30-35?
Smartt: Ya, only other thing like I say, some guy came in about 1:00, and bought a case of beer at those prices.
Bradley: At what prices.
Smartt: At bar prices, which I thought was unusual, I didn't recognize him. He had short hair.
Crim: How old a guy was he?
Smartt: Oh, late 20's early 30's. And I didn't notice much about him, I said it must he a hell of a party ya know, paying $3.00 & $3.50 a 6-pack.
Crim: Ya, that'a a little exorbitant.
Bradley: Would you say he's of age?
Smartt: Ya, he was of age. He was a tall fellow, I'd say ah, oh, 6' 1", 6' -2", taller than I am, and that's why I noticed him, like I say, I didn't really.
Bradley: He had short hair huh?
Smartt: Ya, close, no longer than mine. I didn't, give him enough looking, to tell you, I think his hair was curly and that's just about all to the end of that gentlemen. I just can't think of anybody else that looked out of place enough that I would, ya know, take note of it.
Bradley: Just those two huh?
Crim: You say it was about what time?
Smartt: That was about 1:00 when he came in.
Bradley: Was the same bar tender still working there?
Smartt: Ya, Jack was still on and I think the girls that was working the bar helped him. Cause at the time I was talkin to Doug Albin, one of the owners here and
Bradley: Was that around 1:00 when you were talking to Doug?
Smartt: Ya, it was around there, and then I noticed this guy come in and get the beer
Bradley: Who? Doug what?
Smartt: Albin, he's one of the owners.
Bradley: So Doug was there also?
Smartt: Ya
Bradley: They were there right up till closing, close to it.
Smartt: And ah, we went home at 1:00, I put my wife to bed. And John and I came back to get a night cap.
Bradley: Was there any reason you went home?
Smart: Ya, well, the owner, Doug Albin's wife came down, we like Country Music, the guy that was playing music was playing country music, she came down and insisted on playing, started playing rock and roll. So, we got up and left for that reason and ah, then I came, I came back down, actually to have a night cap and lodge a complaint with the owner of the bar ya know, told the guy that runs the bar about having somebody that really doesn't have any authority down there to come in and order what can and can't be played, which we did.
Bradley: That was Doug's wife that changed the music on you?
Smartt: Ya, but ah, we had one drink and ah, then, ya know, it was last call so it must have been oh, I'd say ten or fifteen minutes before 2:00. Then we walked back home.
Bradley: But the first time you left at 1:00, how did you go home, what direction did you take?
Smartt: Up around the lodge, then straight up the road. The same way all three times.
Bradley: So you walked right past the
Smartt: Right past the fence.
Bradley: The victims house?
Smartt: Uh huh.
Bradley: O.K., now, we'd like you to really tune in on, at that time. Did you see anything unusual at that point, any lights on in the house? Anybody standing around talking?
Any cars?
Smartt: We were involved in a conversation as we were walking.
Bradley: Uh huh
Bradley: O.K., now, we'd like you to really tune in on, at that time. Did you see anything unusual at that point, any lights on in the house? Anybody standing around talking?
Any cars?
Smartt: We were involved in a conversation as we were walking.
Bradley: Uh huh
Smartt: There was no cars parked on the street but, I would have noticed that and ah, the only thing I thought it was unusually dark in the area, there's usually a light in there somewhere, I can't recall exactly where the light is located, but there's usually a light in there shining, and it wasn't on.
Bradley: You mean in that row of houses.
Smartt: Ya, in the area, should be a street light in there, I did't notice but I thought it was awful dark in the area. But ah, like I say, we were involved in a conversation and we really didn't pay any attention but
Bradley: That's understandable.
Smartt: And likewise, when we came back it was oh, ten minutes later, we had enough time to take off our, we were wearing three pieces, so we had enough time to take off our jacket and vest and then put our jackets back on, came back down and ah, once again, we were in conversation, I can't think of anything at all during that period, we came back down, that was out of place.
Bradley: How long do you think you were home?
Smartt: Maximum of 10 minutes.
Bradley: Did you do anything at home during that time?
Smartt: Well, I changed and I called the guy at the bar and told him, I said you just lost several customers over lettin somebody switch the music and he says, well he, you know,
he, the bartender was concerned, don't be mad at me, come on back down, ya know, so we went back down and show good faith that we weren't mad at him. But, we must have got back down there oh, 1:15. We had about enough time to get one drink, before the bar closed.
Bradley: What time do they normally close? 1:30 or 2:00?
Smartt: Two-ish on Saturday.
Bradley: So you figure your got back there around 1:15, or l:30?
Smartt: 1:15 or so, we had about enough time to drink one drink, which, about a half hour. must have been, oh, I'd say 1:45 when we left there and started back up. And, again, cuttin up jackpots and talking.
Bradley: Did you go back the same way again?
Smartt: Ya, same route.
Bradley: Nothing new either.
Smartt: Nothin, no, I'm a Vietnam Veteran, anything odd or unusual at all going on, I'm going to pick up on it right away, I, out of habit anymore. Ya, I'm going to pick up on
anything unusual, if I even have to catch somebody's glance.
Crim: Your senses are still pretty keen, then?
Smart: Ya, even with the 4 or 5 beers I had in me, I would have noticed anything that would have stuck out, the same way, ya know, if you could make all the racket you want in
the house and I can be asleep, but one unnatural sound, sound, and I'm up like that, ya know, like the door open, any unnatural sound at night time, like John fell off the couch, woke me right up, Friday night.
Crim: About what time did you go to bed?
Smartt: I went to bed about ten after two. After, well, we keep the medicine put up because of the kids, I had to get John's medicine out, and I gave him two phenobarbitals, and a delantin, two phenobarbitals and two delantins, to go to bed on. That's what the doctor prescribed.
Bradley: Every night he has to take that?
Smartt: Ya. Once he's out, that's it, ya know.
Crim: Then you went to bed.
Smartt: Then I went to bed and woke up again around 3:00, stoke the fire.
Crim: Nothing unusual woke you up, you just...
Smartt: Matter of habit. I always wake up around 3:00 or 3:30, stoke the fire. I got up, ya know, checked the house, and ah, stoked the fire, and ah, matter of fact, I opened the door and went outside and got a piece of wood, came back in, I didn't notice anything.
Crim: Just nice and quiet?
Smartt: Quiet, as a matter a fact, usually about that time, a train is going by, I didn't notice the train, then go to sleep. Very peaceful and quiet, I can't think of anything.
Bradley: Of that crowd that was in the bar, those two were the only ones looked out of place?
Smartt: He was a short husky guy, muscle guy.
Bradley: The guy with the real long hair, he was short and husky?
Smartt: Yea, he was about 5'6, 5'7.
Bradley: You've never seen him before?
Smartt: I've never seen him before.
Crim: Did you notice anything unusual about the vehicles parked?
Smartt: When we first approached, there was two hippie-type guys comin out and gettin in a pickup truck, think it was a Ford, but I didn't pay any attention.
Bradley: Pickup?
Smartt: Yeah, it was a pickup. I did notice it was a pickup truck, but ah, I didn't notice any particulars, except that they were shoddy dressing, ya know, dressed shoddy, and dirty, long hair, beard…
Bradley: Do you feel most of them were Keddie residents?
Smartt: Well, clientele, few Keddie residents go to the bar because...
Bradley: Cause of the prices?
Smartt: Ya, well, most of the people around here are pretty poor.
Bradley: There it's probably a buck a bottle.
Smartt: Yeah. Average $1.00 probably for the beer, $1.50 for drinks. Few Keddie residents that just frequent the bar, they come, you know, like I do, once in a blue moon. Yeah.
Crim: All go down and have a couple or so, so close.
Smartt: Yeah. Right. If the car had been running we would have went to town.
Bradley: Were you, uh, I'm not trying to make a drunk out of you or anything, but did you have enough to drink to where you would consider yourself, uh, not having your faculties
about you?
Smartt: No. A matter of fact I know exactly how much I had to drink. I drank four beers. And 2 cokes. John drank all cokes.
Crim: That was between 10 and l?
Smartt: Yeah.
Crim: Yeah.
Bradley: That hardly going to get you, hard core...
Crim: Ho Ho Ho
Bradley: You ought to have been pretty alert.
Smartt: Yeah. I was, I was, you know, pretty well had all my senses about me. John drank cokes until we came back and then had a double shot of CC. That's all he had.
Crim: He probably, was he limiting his drinking pretty much?
Smartt: Yeah. He has to.
Crim: With all the medicine and everything?
Smartt: Yeah. If he takes more than two drinks and then takes those two pills, then you can't move him with a crowbar.
Bradley: That bad, uh.
Smartt: Well once he takes his medicine, that's it for him anyway.
Crim: He is out, and gone until morning?
Smartt: Well he can hardly even walk after that medicine is in.
Bradley: Was your wife still in the sack when you got back? In bed?
Smartt: Yeah, when I got home she was just gone, slept right through.
Crim: Let's go, let's go ahead with the next morning. Sunday morning. The time that Justin came, do you have any idea?
Smartt: It had to have been around 10 or l0:30. I was still in bed, I'm a deadhead. The reason I know about it, is he came in, somebody, you know, uh, Sue and Mickey, er Sue
and Johnny had been killed, murdered. I thought, you know, don't come in and tell that kind of joke, it's not funny. He said, I'm not kidding man, look out the window. And sure enough, there was police all over the place. And he started in with the details and I stopped him because I got an eight year old son there. I said, hey, don’t go into details. We don't want to hear all the gory stuff, you know, skip it, because I didn't want the young kid to hear it. So I hushed him up and uh, little kids all over the whole neighborhood coming, and ah ya know, the wife was naturally upset.
Bradley: Ya, I imagine so.
Smartt: You bet.
Smartt: So, she went over to find out, you know, what she could. And I went over and told Doug basically what I told you, you know. I went by twice, and it was well three times,
actually four times in the process of the night, and I hadn't noticed anything out of place.
Crim: Is there anything unusual occur with Justin that daythat you can recollect?
Smartt: Justin's behavior became very eratic. He kept wanting to go back over around the area where the crime had taken place. He uh, he wanted to go to the Seabolts, of all places. You know, usually if they are going to go play they go to the pond. But they wanted to go to the Seabolts right next door. I told him to stay around the house, don't go nowhere. I was concerwed, I didn't want him in the way, and I didn't want him around that type of atmosphere. so he insisted on playing in a tree right out at the edge of the driveway, so he was right close to what all was going on. You know. And his behavior has been erratic since then.
Crim: You say erratic, could you go into some kind of detail about how or?
Smartt: I was gone all day yesterday was in Reno , but these reports I get, he's very hyper. You know, won't, hard to keep settled down. Uh, picks on his little brother. Almost like he was enjoying it, you know. Uh, hurting his little brother, picking on him, uh, periods of re-
fusing to eat, uh. You know.
Bradley: Of course that was quite an experience for the kid, you
Smartt: Yeah, oh yeah. Just strange behavior. He's just not himself. He's beside himself, his behavior, you know. That's another thing I really don‘t know how to deal with there.
Bradley: Our problem now, is sorting out fact from fiction with all the kids.
Smartt: Yeah.
Bradley: You know, the kids his age.
Crim: Very difficult to talk to kids.
Bradley: And they talk to each other, and they hear something and christ, before you can finish, you don't know if they are imagining half the things, or they have actually seen something or if they are talking about something they heard. And there is a pack of kids
around this place.
Crim: Did he, at any time during his behavior or anything, try to recreate that crime or anything?
Smartt: Yes, yes he has. He tried to recreate it with his little brother, yesterday over there, and uh, the wife watched him. watched him go through it. And he‘s telling Casey, you know, to hold his arm like he had a knife trying to stab it. But from what I understand, the people were killed with a hammer, after that they were stabbed, so I get the feeling there that he was just, you know, play-acting his little creation. It seems unusual that he knew so much about the condition of inside of the house and he was suppose to have been
asleep, you know?
Crim: Was he in a position....
Smartt: Now that...'excuse me.
Crim: Was he in a position, did you observe him in a position the following morning over around the Seabolts where if the deputies had left the door opened for a moment or
two that he could have looked in there and seen the female?
Smartt: No. The security over there was so tight, that it was just...
Crim: What do you mean?
Smartt: No way could he have accidentally glimpsed in and seen anything because the security was really tightened down at the time. Uh, these are some of the things, you know, I wonder about. You know, whether or not he did see anything.
Crim: Do you feel that there is a big possibility he could have?
Smartt: Justin is a very light sleeper. I, often times he‘s gotten up when I was, like I said, I stoke the fire at about 3:30.
Crim: Uh huh.
Smartt: And uh, often times he's been awaken by me stoking the fire and got up and went to the bathroom during that period of time. And I know that he does sleep light. And he does have trouble goingr to sleep sometimes.
Seems to me that under an excitable period such as what they are under, that, you know, 10, laying in bed with your buddy giggling and this and that. There is a very high possibility that he could have been awake or alerted to something unusual in that house. And he
is quiet enough to where he could have noticed something without me detecting him.
Bradley: If you've got, you know, we're no more better equipped with imagination than you are probably. And I'm sure you have thought about this a lot. Kicked it around in your head and wondered what's happened over there and why and all this type of thing, so just like we are doing.
Smartt: Yeah.
Bradley: Uh, the fact that, uh, that they were in there, and the persons who did this, person or persons, we don't know, why didn't they bother those kids?
Smartt: It's overkill, you know. For one, this is, if it was, I know if I was going to kill somebody, I'd go in, blam, blam, blam and get going. I mean, there is no sense in
going any further than that. You go in and you do what has to be done. Make sure the job is done right, and get goin. Uh, there would be no sense in beatin them or mutilate them or anything like that. Uh, the person that would go that far, why didn't he hurt those other kids?
Bradley: Yeah, that's of course something we've been trying to find out.
Smartt: Maybe he didn't know that they were there. Maybe he didn't think to look in that bedroom. But if I want to kill somebody, I‘m going to check out the whole house, right?
Bradley: Yeah, I would imagine. -
Crim: Yeah and then of course we've got the other factors involved, we've got the girl missing.
Smartt: The girl missing. Right.
Bradley: why did he snatch the girl?
Smartt: I was thinking, ok, I know this girl is the father's favorite kid. Who I've never met. This is what I've heard from a few conversations, that he is supposed to been in Connecticut, so they said. Well maybe the father, maybe the boys tried to stop him, so he had to take them out too because or maybe the boys walked in on something. And he took them out because of that. Uh, before they realized who it was, we entertained the thought that maybe it was Dana that did it? Because he is suppose to be mentally disturbed. Both of the boys were experimenting with drugs. This is a known fact.
Bradley: What kind of drugs, just weed or?
Smartt: Weed, uh, stuff like that. Maybe a few pills, I don't know. I, I'm at an age, being in the situation, going to school, I'm at an age where I get both ends of the grapevine, you know. You know these people 40ish, 50ish years old, and the same time I'm on what 15 and 16 year olds are doing in the neighborhood, right on down to 8.
Bradley: Yeah, yeah, you are better equipped then we are at that, and I'm not so naive to think most teenagers, hell, they screw around with weed, you know.
Smartt: Yeah, right.
Bradley: But if they were into heavy drugs, I don't know, it would be bean or something like that, it could be a drug related rip off, I don't know.
Smartt: This is the thing now. One boy, some son and a son Dana have to get drugs somewhere. This is only logical right?
Bradley: But they use a gun.
Smartt: Ah, I'd entertained that thought. With a hit, because they'd ya know, ah, but then why the overkill?
Bradley: Yeah.
Smartt: Ah, I don't know, I'd like to see the hammer, I‘ve been in Sue's house. The only hammer I ever knew that come out of there was a wooden-handIed one. Ah, my hammer
Bradley: Is it?
Smartt: It always layed outside the door. I've searched and I haven't found it.
Bradley: What kind of hammer did you have?
Smartt: A blue handled hammer.
Bradley: Blue handled, silver or metal handle?
Smartt: Metal handle, ya. I haven't noticed it layin about, so we can't, I thought of that this morning, ya know, cause this guy come right by my house, ya know, geez if that was true, he would have picked up my hammer, why in hell not my hatchet, a lot better. So, ya know, I keep thinkin how, why, how could it be done. In and out without somebody noticing, ah, the kid, ya know, a vehicle, a truck, something, if you'll pull in while hiding, you would have had to pass the Seabolts house, there's other people living back in there too.
Bradley: Yah
Smartt: If he'd walked in, how could he carry that girl out, without her raisin all kinds of hell unless She was unconscious, and which way would he have went, the bridge across the
creek down here is locked
Bradley: It is at night?
Smartt: It's locked period. I don't know why but there's no way you could have crossed that bridge and got on the other side of the creek.
Crim: What's that, a swinging bridge or something?
Smartt: Yah, ah, this road here, hell, if you're goin out this way, and unless he was in a vehicle, it would have been surely noticed, that leaves only one point of exit and that's the railroad track. Ah, then you're still in awe, there's a lot of big dogs and stuff up in there
that would have raised hell, stranger goin by
Crim: These are all good points you're making.
Smartt: Uh, by my house, ahh, about the back way, that way, the next door neighbor's dog would have raised hell, uh the Emerson's dog in their back yard, I would have noticed that.
Bradley: Do they normally bark at...
Smartt: At anything that moves around there of a nighttime. Because I have to call the dog when I come in. They bark anytime something goes by over there, either way. Uh, like I say, the girls aren't here across the way and that house has a big collie dog that barks at strangers.
Crim: Is that the house right below the Seabolts?
Smartt: Yeah. On the other side.
Bradley: If somebody had come in and parked behind the victims house....
Smartt: Her dog would have raised hell, it would seem like. If they'd got out, you know?
Bradley: Yeah.
Smartt: Anywhere close. But they could have pulled in and parked behind the vietim's house and nobody would have noticed. Beeause you can't see it from the street.
You can't see that area from the street.
Bradley: No. There's a lot of area down there.
Smartt: Yeah. And it is all dark. Unfortunately the whole area is dark and uh, but, still in all, as, like I say, how would you get this kid out? Unless she was unconscious?
Bradley: I don't, you've got the same thought that I have.
Crim: Yeah. We're wondering the same damn thing, you know. How could a
Smartt: Yeah. And if the guy was a nut, and he went to that much trouble to do the overkill, could it be possible he overlooked those boys?
Crim: Well, it's possible.
Bradley: It's possible, but why?
Smartt: If you are nutty enough to go to that much trouble you'd think, uh, he'd make a mass out of the thing. Get 'em all.
Bradley: Fortunately he didn't.
Smartt: Yeah. Very fortunately. But, uh, why?
Bradley: We've got a bad enough mess now.
Smartt: Why would he have taped the hands this way and, and...
Crim: Do you think that, uh, if Justin submitted to hypnosis that it might help him? To think something else that he might be consciously, you know, keeping out of his
mind?
Smartt: I don't know. I don't know. I keep thinking myself, gee, you know, I'm very concerned about these kids. You know, now that I talk to you guys I see that you are not the kind of guys that says, ok, you know, the bright light and the whole bit, But uh, I'm very concerned. I went to see Doug the first thing this morning, very concerned because
it created very serious health problems.
Bradley: Yeah. Sure.
Smartt: Like pressure.
Crim: Yeah, I can relate to that.
Smartt: I'm, uh, I'm under kinda semi-treatment for, you know, stress, anxiety myself, and I certainly don't need this you know, and uh...
Crim: You've got a lot of problems at home, uh? Your wife?
Smartt: Yeah.
Crim: We have, we can certainly appreciate that.
Smartt: Been separated. Just, you know, back and forth, on and off.
Crim: If that's, if that's a tactic that, after we've talked to the Sheriff or something, and everybody feels it might be benificial would you have any particular objections to that?
Smartt: Uh, yes and no. I've got reservations, but not particular objections, you know. Like I say, uh, I am concerned about the kid. I don't want to put any mental stress on him that
would make him get more erratic than he is now.
Crim: Yeah.
Smartt: My concern there is strictly for his health.
Crim: Yeah, we can certainly understand that.
Smartt: If there is any way at all you think you could, you could get more information from him, uh, there's a good possiblity, that Justin could have been alerted, maybe just froze ya know.
Crim: That would be a hell of a shock to anybody let alone a little kid you know.