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Post by Hope on Jan 24, 2023 23:04:48 GMT
This was just shared on our FB Community tab (thank you!). I haven't watched it yet, but very much looking forward to hearing Pat's assessment. Pat Brown is a retired BAU Profiler.
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Post by Hope on Jan 24, 2023 23:34:25 GMT
Figured I would add pertinent information as I'm watching the video. Please make sure to still watch the video though!! I will update this post as Pat touches on more: - The discovery of Tina at Camp Eighteen is very important to solving this case.
- Sheila luring Tina home to her death is LUDACRIS.
- The blood on Sue's feet - she sees no evidence Sue did walk around stepping in blood. She believes that is not true and the blood got there from Sue's feet touching against something during the crime. I suppose a puddle of blood or possibly the cushion.
- She does NOT believe any of the victims were staged.
- They were bound BEFORE the crime started
- No evidence of sexual assault against Sue is important.
- You have to be careful with what you believe to be facts with this case.
Marty & Bo Theory:
- Marilyn brought Marty to LE's attention. She later said things in a documentary but there is no proof what she said is true. She seems like a bitter wife.
- PCSO bring Marty in for questioning early on. He & Bo hung around and didn't leave town. They searched his cabin and find nothing. They have access to his car and find nothing. He passes a polygraph. According to Marilyn he was home that night so where was Tina at this point? He wasn't taking her to Feather Falls and she doesn't believe he was hiding her somewhere.
- Marty & Bo did eventually leave town. Probably because Marty's wife wanted nothing to do with him by that point. Bo left because "that's what he does"
- The Love letter, could be talking about the crime or their kids. She believes he was talking about the crime.
- He confessed to his therapist. The therapist did the right thing and reported the confession. He comes off as very credible in the documentary.
- He told the therapist he killed the woman and the girl, with a hammer. But this isn't true because Tina's skull showed no evidence of this when it was found
- Marty said his hammer was missing during his interview
- Everyone is probably saying "but he's such a good suspect! How can you say it wasn't him?"
- She believes he is a psychopath and was toying around with the therapist when he confessed and with the cops over the hammer. Because that's what psychopaths do. They like to toy around with people to get a reaction or attention.
- She's not completely eliminating Marty just lowering him pretty far down on her list.
Justin
- Of all the people that would know what was going on within cabin 28 that night it was Marty because his own son was spending the night.
- "Here's what makes no sense, if he wanted to get Sue he could have gotten her anytime. He wouldn't have to take out any kids. If you know your kid is spending the night over there, not a good time to go kill off the whole family knowing your son can watch what happened. And his son did and he was hypnotized and interviewed by police."
- Justin gave some conflicting stories but believes he did see something.
- Believes there were two men involved.
- She is especially interested in Justin's statement that Tina came out carrying a yellow blanket because Sue was found covered with a yellow blanket. And Justin's statement about one of the men stabbing Sue in the chest with a pocket knife pulled from his pocket because that is also true.
The Blanket- Does not believe this was done out remorse.
- Believes Tina did come out with the blanket, the homicides had already occured and the perpetrator quickly took it from her and covered Sue so she wouldnt see her mom. They then quickly take Tina out the back door.
- "All tied up, homicides occur, Tina comes out and is taken. Exactly like Justin said".
Misc- Mom not raped. She was tied up and killed just like the boys. They didn't come there to rape.
- Again says Marty would not have picked this night.
- Points out Justin has never ever said it was Marty.
- "Some people, like guy who put up those videos, think Justin was involved. His mom was involved. Everybody was involved. Like 6 people were involved. Justin helped kill. But come on now. Really?"
- She doesn't believe for one minute Justin wouldn't have said something if it was his stepdad. And he has never said it was his stepson
I stopped at the 54 minute mark, because everything she begins to say is interesting and important to either what is said about the case or what she believes. I'm going to take a break. So interesting, everyone definitely needs to take a listen! |
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Post by snoho17 on Jan 25, 2023 0:27:37 GMT
I just finished the video, and wow I'm impressed! Some here know my own feelings on Douglas and his profile, gotta say, I'm feeling pretty validated at this moment. I believe this lady is pretty spot on with most of her assessment, I hope she keeps this case on her front burner! Yeah Livermore
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Post by kmik on Jan 26, 2023 21:24:44 GMT
Wow this was such a great video and she brought up so many good points. The reason I don't have a problem with JD profile is that this was done pretty soon after the murders and he was probably going by crime scene photos and information that was given to him at the time. Doug Thomas thought Tina was an integral part of this investigation and she is/was. At the time of the murders people were giving statements like:
*Tina had accused Daniel French of molesting her (which according to her interview was not her first or last time around him)
*The Harper girl would not give LE another interview for the Dan French case
*Rebecca Nowland's statement of Tina being at the mental health saying, "if I had a knife I'd kill you" (was Rebecca there or did Sue tell her this)
*Sue's ex bf statement that Tina and another girl had solicited boys for sex
*According to report Tina was hanging out at the Keddie dorms
*According to statement by Penny Waltemire - Tina was a fast little girl
*Tina was missing from the cabin where Sue, Johnny and Dana lay dead
*Tina's bedroom she shared with Sue and Sheila was in complete disarray
None of this is means SHE committed the murders but it certainly does not eliminate someone who may have been obsessed with her from committing them. We know the weapons came from the house (except for the gun and we do not know if one was owned by Johnny) so the killer knew where to find the weapons. Where is the killers DNA? If this was not planned out and they didn't come prepared with weapons then why come prepared with gloves?
Pat sighed at JD saying these were high risk victims - and they were - maybe not according to Plumas but according to what we've read they were.
JD wrote this when the murders were fresh and people were talking so I'd say it's probably pretty close to the truth because AFTER Tina was found dead nobody wanted to discuss the possibility that she knew the killer. Pat said when JD wrote this he didn't know Tina was already dead - but we nor Pat know that either because we have no idea when or how she died.
Many want to portray Tina as a little girl with learning disabilities - but she was 3 months shy of her 13th bday and I know she had Joel Lipsey for a several classes at school but so did Justin. Aunt Jackie said when Tina was taken off her medicine she would "sit for hours and read a book or something like that".
There's really no way to look at this case without including Tina and her life but it's something people find insensitive because her body was found 3 years later. I've yet to hear anyone doing these shows to give a good possibility of why she was taken. It was a liability for the killer to take her from the cabin whether she was dead or alive - yet it was a risk they were willing to take - so why?
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Post by snoho17 on Jan 26, 2023 23:42:51 GMT
"According to report Tina was hanging out at the Keddie dorms" I was just thinking about the dorms, these people were much older than Tina (college age). Something Craig said many times (I know, I know) was that he avoided the college crowd because the locals were nervous they were "narcs". But I don't think he was the only one to say that.
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Post by Hope on Jan 27, 2023 3:43:43 GMT
That's funny snoho, I was just reading that old post today. I'll add it next.
I think Pat did a great job differentiating between fact and speculation/things have become the foundation of this case over the years. We know that's hard to do, although probably not hard for her considering she's an expert. But the point is, any information besides the prevailing theory is difficult to find.
I see no issue with John Douglas' profile either. It was based on legitimate information directly from PCSO, early into the investigation. I'd say his was based mostly on victimology and crime scene info/photos. It was completely unbiased, PCSO did not have a suspect or specific motive at that point. He didn't have to wade through all the extra that now surrounds this case. I do think it's possible someone could have become obsessed with Tina leading to what happened that night. I would love to hear Douglas' opinion today & whether his profile remained the same.
I also agree with Pat's profile. I feel she provided a lot of good insight and possible explanations for certain aspects. The scenario she laid out is completely plausible in my mind. But I've always bounced back & forth between these two theories & it's difficult to get much further with the information available. I also know, Pat likely wasn't aware of the information you mentioned above, so can't help but wonder if it would change her profile. In the comment section she said if she had access to the case files, she's confident she can come up with an accurate profile. I hope she does revisit the case and we have the opportunity to hear her thoughts.
I'm just glad actual experts are weighing in and providing their input. These are the people we should be listening to. She nailed something right on the head - Feather Falls is the most important clue of all. It's not given enough attention. Chuck & Henry have flown under the radar and the truth is, Henry was one of the confessions over the years. Whatever the reason or excuse, it can't be dismissed. Also, when were they said they were in Livermore Fri into Saturday. But didn't Kathy G say it may have been Saturday into Sunday? Whenever they went, they pretty much drove all that way and only hung out there for a very short period of time. Add to it the rumors of the acid party being at Walkes & Donna seeing Henry in Quincy while he should have been in Livermore.
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Post by kmik on Jan 27, 2023 4:09:52 GMT
Yes I think she did a great job and brought up many good points. I'm not taking anything away from her when I say that Tina is almost an afterthought with these people doing these videos because she's not the only one. They just don't know what to do with her absence from the crime scene so instead of saying "hey it's possible that someone was obsessed with her", they just say she probably came out of her room, saw what was going on, and was taken away (and hey that may have happened) but at least address possible scenarios since she was the only one missing from the cabin.
Thanks for sharing this video with us!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2023 22:48:09 GMT
I did say that and this is Craig Walters, if you did not know by the other posta! I had to tell locals that I was not a NARC and drank
with them at Mt Hough and Oakland Camp, I was not able to buy beer yet as I was only 19 years old and 20 years old (Fall 1980-1982) when
I went to FRC...Feather River College. It took time and other locals still did not believe me and well those are the ones that mostly
said that I was lying about things, ON MANY FORUMS. I think this was a major problem with me hanging out with the local Mountain Folk up
there and it is still that way even today, if I went up there. But I was told in so many ways to not to come back up there, as something
would happen to me, like it did in the SAFEWAY/where the ROUND TABLE PIZZA is shopping center in summer 1981, 2 months after the quadruple
murders.
In Regard to Pat Brown, I think she is right on with Justin and he saw pretty much a lot in the time he was in that small living room and
I had been in that very small living room once and also down below where John's bedroom was and I do remember quite a bit of that time and
some I have forgotten, in just aging and well I wanted to forget things for a reason or my mind wanted to. That might sound pretty weird but
the mind can do pretty weird things and if I do not remember stuff... do not blame me as it is aging or something else!
The so-called Tina exploits and what was said about her above as I do not even know that half are true and if any of it was true, I saw Tina
maybe twice before her death from August 1980 when I arrived to go to FRC thru April 1981 when she disappeared and saw Sue a lot more at the
college and this along with Marlyn Smart at FRC.
I do think also Justin is a key to unlock a lot of this and always said he was a key and that Camp Eighteen as I said a long time ago was also a key
to solving this case. I also think too many people are involved or are thought they are involved in this quadruple murder and this throws a lot of
things into chaos and uncertainty in finding the real killers. This new Pat Brown theory is interesting but throws more gray into two more suspects
and as intriguing as it is, it throws a lot more salt into a wound that continues to bleed!
Sorry Mrs. Pat Brown as you are right on with certain things about the case and I agree with your Profiles, but others are not so much and I was up
there at the time and knew a lot of them, alive and now also dead some 42 years later! I had nodded head to you several times in watching that videos
and some I DID NOT!
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Post by karis on Jul 13, 2023 12:51:42 GMT
Thanks frc19980 for coming on the forum and telling things from your own perception of your time in Quincy. I have read the old forums and what was said to you, i would even call it bullying you. At that time no one was aware that just a few years later we would have access to Newspaper.com, Ancestry.com, ect... Quincy's newspapers have been a major help in dispelling some of the lies that have been told. Not only that, we now have access to more releasing of files than the old forum posters had. You did live in Quincy during the time of the murders. It's right there for anyone to see. Not really sure why they were trying to discredit you.
I do think Justin is the key to solving this crime also. After all, his DNA has been found on tape that was used to bind the victims. NOT Marty's, Marilyn's, or Dee Lake's. That information is in the files we now have access to. Feel free to correct me if anyone reads that report differently.
These files are now available courtesy of Mike Gamberg and Dmac.
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Post by snoho17 on Jul 14, 2023 4:20:53 GMT
Thank you for posting! Everybody here has different ideas of what happened, my own theories change daily. We don't attack, we absorb. I'm hoping your of the same mind:) Welcome to the Truth board!
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Post by Hope on Jul 14, 2023 6:12:39 GMT
I do think also Justin is a key to unlock a lot of this and always said he was a key and that Camp Eighteen as I said a long time ago was also a key to solving this case. I also think too many people are involved or are thought they are involved in this quadruple murder and this throws a lot of things into chaos and uncertainty in finding the real killers. Welcome frc1980! Thank you for joining & we're glad to have you here. I ditto everything Karis said. Also, I 1000000% agree with you about Camp Eighteen, that is probably the biggest clue in this case, something that points to who's responsible these awful homicides. I definitely appreciated Pat Brown's assessment & hearing from someone with her experience. The most interesting part to me was when she mentioned Camp Eighteen & pointed out how anyone driving to the Bay Area would driving right past Camp 18. Not even just Chuck & Henry, many persons of interest were connected with the Bay Area came up in the police reports. So many people claimed to be in the Bay Area that weekend. It seems likely to me one of them were still in Plumas Saturday night, made that trip to the Bay Area after the homicides and made a stop at Camp Eighteen on the way. Whoever was responsible certainly had a vehicle and poor Tina was removed that night. Not the hoops jumped through to make the prevailing theory possible. Chuck & Henry, although I previously never believed they had involvement, now I feel they should not be so easily ruled out. Perhaps not directly responsible but possible first hand knowledge?? Their alibi is f'd. It's unknown when they were really in Livermore, people claimed to see them in Quincy Saturday when they claimed to have left for Livermore on Friday. And the claims of Chuck having a party that night. What stands out most is when Henry confessed, the informant who came forward said Henry was with a "Gary, Larry or similar name". Could someone have returned with them from Bay area? Then there's Terry A. who was going around town talking about the murders. Terry rhymes. Terry also talked about a Gary (another rhyming name) but didn't include that in his LE statements. And he apparently lived with Spang who placed himself in Keddie that night. That's just scratching the surface for those guys. There's also Cooney who up & moved to Bay Area out of nowhere shortly after the homicides. His wife didn't even collect her last check. He was also a vet. Certain people have said it had something to do with a vet connected to FRC & the Bay Area. He fits that's description. Carl K also claimed to be in Bay Area that weekend. Known dealer, kicked out of Keddie for dealing shortly before the homicides. He had moved to Moon's cabins. The PON entry which states Marty sold hash, that wasn't Marty it was Carl. The statement came from Steve D who obviously was not being truthful when interviewed. He told at least 4 different accounts of where he was Saturday & had to keep changing it as LE called him out. From his full statement we now know where the hash info came from. It was about Carl & sounds like Steve + friends had a ripoff situation with Carl & friends which ended with Carl pulling a shotgun on them. I don't believe Steve was involved, but do believe he was withholding something important & fearful. That leads me to Lynn S who Marilyn spoke with while in Keddie, around the time you guys went the anniversary remembrance. He told Marilyn he knew for certain it wasn't Marty. He also claimed to have been in the Bay Area that weekend. He was friends with many of the names in this case. There's so much more but this is getting long enough. I do believe something may have happened involving j&d which unfortunately led to these homicides. Normal teenage behavior which unfortunately ended in the worst possible tragedy. I do go back & forth between that and something surrounding Tina, some creep who may have taken an interest in her. The fact she was taken I believe made it even more difficult for LE to solve. But someone associated with Tina doesn't explain the odd behavior of those close to j&d. A lot of those kids appeared fearful & not completely forthcoming with information. The biggest of all Kathy Beckley & Cruzita Jaramillo. I cannot let go of them withholding that information for 37 years. Their excuse makes zero sense. Claiming it was Kathy's affair with Dana which made them lie/withhold. Except Kathy admitted j&d were at her apartment that evening. There was something specifically about this supposed ride they were hiding. Not the relationship which LE already knew about and wtf would it matter if Cruzita said she rode them home, that has absolutely nothing to do with Kathy & Dana - besides allegedly picking them up at Kathy's apartment which LE already knew j&d were there!! So what were they really hiding? And P.S. I can definitely believe that about having to prove to ppl you weren't a narc. Just from reading news articles from that time, it's obvious PCSO utilized informants frequently, and didn't do a great job at protecting them. All you have to do is read the FRB, practically everyone arrested was having their drug charges dropped. Gee, wonder why? It also makes me wonder about the Dorris home and why certain officers spent so much time there. Plus had their family working at the home. Forcino & DeCrona most definitely, both the narcotics officers. And Id bet Gamberg as well before he was fired considering it was his old job DeCrona took over. Those boys would have been easy prey and even if not, I can see people being suspicious/worried. |
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