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Post by snoho17 on May 23, 2023 19:01:35 GMT
The knife mark was speculation on my part and your correct about the knot. I don't recall discussing a different name for it, but I'm sure it has one. So talking it out, it probably has less to do with the tiers "handedness" and more to do with the functionality of the knot
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Post by Hope on May 23, 2023 19:40:37 GMT
The hitch used to connect Sue's wrist bindings to her ankle bindings, that is not the way I feel most everyday people would have went about it. They would use something quick, easy, & familiar. Could have just tied the two wires together with overhand/granny knots. They utilized the end plug to secure with a hitch & connect her wrists/ankles. An unusual way for most people to decide let alone complete the task especially in a frenzy, unusual but very efficient, unfortunately : ( They knew this & were confident in executing it. Logger, rancher, vet? We've said before but it's similar how LE or prison guards transport people. Wrists - ankles - connect the two with a connecting piece. She was likely sitting on the couch when applied.
So, one or two+ people? I personally lean towards two but although someone could have acted alone - even with the different knots. Purposely chosen knots for J&D's ankles, the hitch on Sue. Simple knots for the gag, belt like material found at camp 18 because they were tying fabric. Overhanded knot at Sue's ankles because she was already well enough secured. Unless LE did somehow determine specific knots by left handed & specific knots right handed, all left handed, etc two perpetrators seem most likely imo
The same knots used on J&D seem to suggest the same person tied them. That's not surprising considering we've speculated that was done as an immobilization technique (vs staging) after they were already incapacitated or deceased. As a precaution, especially if Dana did break free, which I do believe is the reason for his broken bindings. One ties the boys together, taking no more chances, while the other handles Sue who was still mobile based on the bloody footprints. Whether she came out into the living room or jumped up from the couch. Something happened with j&d initially, it doesn't appear Johnny even had the time to react. Two+ perpetrators. Unplanned homicide. Whatever it started out as escalated into what it turned into. As it escalated, the electrical cords were introduced and collected from the cabin.
WTF didn't they utilize the extension cords right there in the living room? They went into the bedroom to cut the lamp cord instead of using those right there in the living room. The lamp cord was used on Sue. Where did the extension cord used for Johnny & Dana come from?
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Post by Hope on May 23, 2023 20:10:22 GMT
The knife mark was speculation on my part and your correct about the knot. I don't recall discussing a different name for it, but I'm sure it has one. So talking it out, it probably has less to do with the tiers "handedness" and more to do with the functionality of the knot Ok thanks! The marks in the wall suggesting the knife was pulled out in a particular direction was familiar to me. I didn't want to only consider it a maybe if it was something PCSO had determined. It still may be absolutely correct. I'll find and paste the report here for us all. You mentioned how in the documentary Dee said LE came to him because something about the scene, perhaps the knots, made them believe a vet could be involved. I know that's been cited as "evidence" against Dee in Gamberg's report but it is 100% possible/likely Dee was recalling the truth. Just because a report isn't written as "visited Dee L because he is an expert & familiar with local vets and the knots lead us to believe...." Doesn't mean it didn't happen. The questions they asked could very well have led Dee to believe something made them believe it could be a vet. It was public knowledge they were bound, the knots are a reasonable assumption to make. It's also a small community. Seems completely plausible Stoy or another officer did talk with Dee outside of an "official interview" and certain things came up. And.... according to official reports they did come to Dee specifically interested in information on one of the vets he knew - Cooney!! What Dee said in the documentary does align with what was occurring in 1981.
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Post by snoho17 on May 23, 2023 21:42:05 GMT
Off topic, but boaters/sailors would use those knots also. I thought it was kinda strange in Justin's statements how he used correct terminology when talking about his dream boat. I wondered if maybe his dad owned a boat or had been a sailor/fisherman at one point? But anyway, I agree the knots were tied by someone who used them alot, by muscle memory. Logger, Forester, veteran, climber, ranger, hell, macrame enthusiast;) farmer, sailor, boy scout. Nice post Hope! You got me thinking
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akat
Junior Member
Posts: 50
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Post by akat on May 23, 2023 23:16:06 GMT
So even though they couldn’t determine Tina’s cause of death, I would like to know if they thought she was strangled by this “ligature” or if they thought it was a binding like the others? She did not have blunt force trauma to her head from the hammer. It was left in the cabin. Nothing has ever been proven imo that a second hammer was used. She wasn’t stabbed as far as they could tell. No known knife nicks on any of her bones that I’ve heard about. The knives used were also left in the cabin. The cabin had no evidence of her being killed there, so was this pink cloth used to kill her? If the knot on the cloth matched the one on Sue and not the boys I would definitely be under the opinion that two people were definitely involved. It’s also my opinion she was killed away from the cabin. They would have used the same weapons on her if they had been available at the time. I still whole heartedly believe she tried to escape that cabin that night and was caught. They took her somewhere remote and somewhere they knew so they wouldn’t be caught. For me, her trying to escape seems the simplest answer.
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Post by snoho17 on May 24, 2023 6:13:06 GMT
Nice post akat, I don't believe Tina was killed in the cabin either, but I don't know. Also, I used to think it was all a bunch of hooey that she had been held for awhile before being killed. In the documentary, it appears this rumor all started with Dr. Muran saying he originally thought the bones had only been there six months. And he later corrected himself saying theses things are often a best guess and he believes he was wrong. But somewhere, I think I recall officers believing she'd been held alive for a few days. It was discussed by locals on old forums, so I do believe it was a rumor that was checked into, there's just no way to verify either way.
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Post by snoho17 on Jun 14, 2023 9:43:47 GMT
"Wow akat! And you too snoho because you said the red ribbon was probably forestry tape." Oops, sorry Hope, wasn't saying the communication tape was red. Actually I popped over here because I just remembered the "red material" and wondered if it could be remnants of Johns bandana.
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