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Post by Hope on Feb 22, 2022 15:33:43 GMT
810430-?? After Justin claimed by looking through the crack between the boys' bedroom door
and the wall, he saw two men taking Tina out of the back of the cabin via the kitchen, Stoy went to
Cabin 28 and confirmed it was physically impossible to see the kitchen from that location.
<Stoy>
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Post by snoho17 on Apr 25, 2023 6:49:14 GMT
I will point out it says Justin saw Tina taken out back via the kitchen, and not that he ever saw her in the kitchen. There's only one way out the back, and its via the kitchen. I think one could make a pretty safe assumption that if someone heads in that direction and doesn't come back, they left through the back door via the kitchen, aka the only way anyone could leave out the back. In that house, i'd bet you could here the floors and the stairs creaking as well.
There's not much detail about what Justin did hear that night. "An argument" no details and "Sue" no context. Yet he saw the killers well enough to see their eyes behind glasses and the tread on ones boots? I just don't know what to make of it
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Post by Hope on Apr 25, 2023 12:57:50 GMT
I will point out it says Justin saw Tina taken out back via the kitchen, and not that he ever saw her in the kitchen. There's only one way out the back, and its via the kitchen. I think one could make a pretty safe assumption that if someone heads in that direction and doesn't come back, they left through the back door via the kitchen, aka the only way anyone could leave out the back. In that house, i'd bet you could here the floors and the stairs creaking as well. 💯 It is a real shame those details weren't asked/included in the reports. What was said vs simply saying "an argument" occurred. I don't know what to make of Justin's claims either besides a lot of it could have been heard from the bedroom if he was awake. His statement of how things began is very interesting. Ie Sue sitting on the couch, men in the living room, j&d arriving home and an argument ensuing. That rings true. It certainly appears something caused things to escalate to murder and j&D's arrival could be the impetus. The bindings, tape then electrical cord, also show an escalation. Sue's bindings in particular, it is possible she was bound at the wrist and sitting on the couch. The ankle tape and electrical cords later added, connected together still in a way that would allow her to sit on the couch. If j&d walked into something already in motion, began to argue but thought twice once they saw the severity of what was occurring it, in that situation I can envision them allowing themselves to be bound as well. It's very hard to envision Johnny allowing that to occur - unless he realized his mom & sister were in danger and complying was his safest bet to get them all out of there safely. Unfortunately, it didn't turn out that way : ( |
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Post by snoho17 on Apr 26, 2023 6:56:00 GMT
See that scenario always made me wonder if Sue was grabbed and pulled off the couch, bringing the cushion with her, maybe she even grabbed onto it herself. Which brings me up to my mystery gash in the cushion, did someone use the cushion to try and deflect a blade?
A fair question would be what about the cigarette pack? Cigarettes and wallets have alot in common, guys carry them both in pockets, and in this case both items ended up in the vicinity of the couch, as if they'd been tossed.
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Post by Hope on Apr 26, 2023 13:03:55 GMT
I agree with you snoho. I think that's the likeliest explanation for the couch cushion. Could be wrong of course but that makes the most sense. Based on the blood patterns near the couch, where Sue was discovered and even the way she was bound suggests she was sitting on that couch.
I know we're all in agreement this wasn't planned, not homicide at least. Whoever was responsible was lucky. That's all. If that couch cushion did just fall off in a struggle, it's location & purpose led to it being more important than it really was?
Speaking of the profile, random thought just popped in my head. In a news article years later, it was Stoy & DeCrona being interviewed. They mentioned how they reached out to profilers for help, but "when you profile this case it just makes it even more confusing". That leads me to believe JD's profile was not at all where they were focusing their investigation. It added to the confusion. Did they take it seriously?
I don't know what that means in the long run - did PCSO have more information pointing them in an opposite direction? Or had they ignored a potential avenue of investigation with Tina as motive in the beginning? And possibly even after the profile because it didn't match the leads the trajectory of their investigation? Again, don't know what to make for that. I don't believe they ignored that avenue completely based on DTs comments to news reporters early on. Perhaps as the investigation proceeded DTs initial concerns were pushed aside, not backed up by interviews, etc and attention focused elsewhere?
The cigarette pack... Yes, somehow it ended up on the couch after the cushion came off. How? The contents of the living room ashtray were not documented like the ashtray in Sue's bedroom. Was that because it was empty? That's the assumption I go with and if true, it's telling. Neither Johnny nor Dana had time to relax and smoke a cigarette when they arrived home. If they were allowed or at least able to get away with it. Sue may not have known/allowed Johnny to do so, but Dana being there could have made that easier to get away with. At least that's how it was in my teenage years.
A pack of camels was found on the couch and a pack of Marlboros found crumbled up on the bookshelf behind the door. The two types j&d smoked. But no butts in the ashtray. No butts from the killer(s). And the perpetrators left that full pack of Camels on the couch. I don't put a ton of weight on what Justin says, but he claimed neither man smoked. I do, however, believe a smoker would have taken those camels. Why not?
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Post by snoho17 on Jul 8, 2023 7:03:01 GMT
Stoy evidence #44 Ashtray and contents of ash tray taken from the living room #54 Benson and Hedges cigarette in pack on t.v. tray living room #75 Ash tray in girls bedroom with a Benson and Hedges cigarette in it keddietruth.freeforums.net/thread/37/stoys-photographic-evidence-report"A pack of camels was found on the couch and a pack of Marlboros found crumbled up on the bookshelf behind the door." A crumpled pack of Marbs? Thought we were told it was crumpled Camels, and that's why the second pack had to be the killers. I figured if J/D were down to their last sticks, they'd stop for a full pack. Dana had $5 and if John had none, he'd just bum off Dana. I feel like we've seen a decent photograph of the entry way, but I'm not finding it, yet. And now that I think on it, I don't recall any but Sue and Dana packs mentioned. I'll go check the report again |
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Post by Hope on Jul 18, 2023 2:43:48 GMT
I'm not finding it either snoho, but also recall a photo of the bookshelf where you can clearly see the crumbled up pack of cigs.
This came out later, but in an 81 interview with Sheila she mentions Johnny smoking Marlboros and Dana Camels. Prior to that it was decided the pack of Camels left on the couch had belonged to the killers, fell out their pocket and left inadvertently. Good idea to revisit those camels knowing they actually belonged to Dana. I'm with you, they were likely purchased with the $5 burger money given to Dana by the Dorris'. They seemed to be an almost full pack.
The crumbled up Marlboros are interesting. Why were they there?? Can't see them being on that bookshelf prior to that night. And none of the ashtrays had Camel or Marlboro butts, suggesting neither Johnny or Dana were at 28 long enough to smoke a cigarette. But that pack of Camels was left on the couch, spot of the missing cushion. Cushion was on the floor before the cigarettes wound up there. What can we make of that?
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