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Post by Hope on Jan 16, 2023 21:28:05 GMT
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Post by snoho17 on Jan 23, 2023 20:48:48 GMT
I wonder if it's possible that Dana was on the ground and his head pushed into the cushion. Either some one standing over him with a foot on his neck, or straddling him with a forearm across his neck. Maybe the damage to his neck wasn't from a standing "sleeper" hold at all?
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Post by Hope on Jan 24, 2023 2:41:18 GMT
Great thought snoho! IMO that is what happened. The ME concluded it was the strangulation which ended his life, it makes sense he would have been down on the floor when it occurred.
Piecing together the MEs findings, COD and our prior discussions... At some point Dana did break free from the tape bindings. The ME confirms the tape originally encircled both wrists. There was no blood underneath the tape as noted by the ME. He also noted any blood stopped at the tapeline. From photos, the amount of blood is significant on Johnny's hands. It appears they were bound before any substantial bleeding occured. The lack of defensive wounds on the boys also shows J&D were bound early on. Allowing this to occur conflicts which what is known about Johnny, under normal circumstances he would have fought like hell.
This leads to a couple of different scenarios:
1.) It was someone he knew, possibly trusted, at least someone he didn't think would end his life. He felt complying with their demands would get them out of there unscathed. They could still deescalate the situation somehow.
2.) Same but done under fear because the perpetrator had a weapon and threatened to use it if they didn't comply. J knew this person had the capability but still thought he could deescalate, otherwise there's a good chance he would have went straight to fight.
3.) At that moment, the perpetrator was directing the threat at someone else. Likely his mom or Tina. J&D had no choice but to comply, otherwise someone he cared about would have been injured.
I'm sure there are other possibilities but those are the three that stick out most to me.
At some point, things do unfortunately escalate. Johnny never had a chance to fight back. Dana broke free from his tape. Sue was the only one with defensive wounds and injuries to her hands......
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Post by Hope on Jan 25, 2023 2:41:31 GMT
I try not to put much weight into Justin's statements, but his comment of Sue sitting on the couch with two men standing in the living room, then J&D return home and argument begins. This is something I can see actually happening as it fits with other things we have brought up. Something happened when J&D arrived home. That is when things escalated. They never even had time to take off their coats. Either they brought trouble home and things immediately went bad or they walked in on something already in motion. It seems more likely they walked in on something and it caused everything to go sideways. I can see the possibility of Sue sitting on the couch, complying but j&D come home and chaoes ensues. The way Sue was bound. She may have already been bound at the wrists and forced to sit on the couch. That specific binding done to sue looks very much like the restraints used by cops or prison guards when they are transferring prisoners/arrestees in a vehicles. The wrists are bound. The ankles are bound seperately. An extension is then used to connect the wrists and ankles. This allows the person to sit comfortably. The way she was bound she could have initially been sitting on the couch. She had defensive wounds on her hands so perhaps only her wrists were bound initially, allowing her to raise her arms. As the situation escalated the ankle and connecting bindings were introduced...... RIPP Hobble - "Never hogtie a prisoner": www.yesweekly.com/news/never-hog-tie-a-prisoner-instructions-on-device-warn-against-fatal-restraint/article_62feb4f9-77c2-574f-b56e-cc5b002ee414.html |
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Post by Hope on Jan 25, 2023 3:31:52 GMT
The other possible scenario we have discussed is something began with J&D in the living room. Sue was in the bedroom and something brought her into the living room. Whether this was some sort of ruckus, Dana calling out for Sue (the scream heard was said to be from a male not a female) and then things escalate from there. In this scenario, the fatal wounds to at least Johnny had already been inflicted. Which brings me to this thread - keddietruth.freeforums.net/thread/314/knife-marks-blood-splatter-wallsDidn't get to finish this and should probably move this discussion over to there. But what I'm caught up on are two things. 1) The photo that shows the corner of the living room. The blood pools start off very small and then gradually become larger to the spot Johnny was discovered. Each of those blood spots came back as type O blood - Johnny. It seems likely he was backed into that corner. Bound and initially attacked there. 2.) The small section behind the front door, with the small bookshelf and school pictures. This is where the knife marks were found in the wall paneling. The height of the marks could definitely correspond with someone being forced to stand there while the knife was stabbed into the wall around their head and shoulders. Dana. I believe something happened to Johnny first. Or simultaneously between j&D. Chaos ensues. Dana at that moment or at some point later, after waking up, is able to break his bindings. He is found in the middle of the living room. The attack on Johnny either causes Sue to get up from the couch or come out from the BR because something alerted her to the LR and she steps in a puddle of blood. Chaos, the perpetrators are busy trying to handle Sue and take care of Dana. I believe Snoho's thought of Johnny being rolled is correct. As well as Ken's assessment that Dana was rolled over. This was done because they were not going to take the chance either boy would get back up again. The introduced the electrical cord and connected the boys via one foot each so if one did get up somehow they were not able to go anywhere. They were busy dealing with Sue at this point and she required their full attention because she was fighting for her life. If Sue was sitting on the couch, this could be when the cushion was introduced. It was knocked off during some part of the struggle. Later used to assist with silencing/smothering/strangling Dana or by happenstance ended up partially underneath him. Mew's thought about the blood on Dana's sleeves makes sense. His hands were free and he instinctively raised his hand to his head. If he was already down on the floor he didn't have any other options to defend himself. He didn't have any defensive wounds on his hands so everything happened quickly. Johnny had zero chance to defend himself because he was attacked first and unexpectedly. There was substantial blood on his hands and the chest area of his vest. The blood was not underneath the tape. I believe he was standing in that corner, his hands were already bound. The wound to his throat was inflicted and he also instinctively raised his hands to his throat causing the blood patterns we see. Poor Tina was either already also in the living room, again things only escalated when j&d came home. They had Sue under control. Or Tina did walk out at the end and was snatched up and taken out the back door as Justin said. I have a hard time believing the perpetrator wouldn't just take care of her right there. Taking her with them adds a whole lot of unnecessary risk. Unless she was the target. Although I suppose it's possible the perpetrators just panicked and/or didn't want to harm a little girl but knew they had no choice, wanted to get out of there and decided to take her. |
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Post by Hope on Jan 25, 2023 4:25:59 GMT
And all the above is why this is such a difficult, complicated case. The scenario does little help in determining what the motive was and/or who initial target was. There are aspects which make it appear j&d were the targets. The original investigators said there were things that made it appear as if the boys were being "interrogated". The knife marks in the wall, Johnny's wallet being tossed behind the couch. Dana and Johnny both had bruised eyes as if punched. But they still had their coats on. They hadn't ate. Hadn't smoked a cigarette. Didn't take their shoes off. Something happened soon after they arrived home. Some of local stories suggested the people were looking, waiting for j&d to get home. That would fit. Two perpetrators also fit towards a motive against j&d. And, I can't help it, I'm extremely suspicious of the girls who drove j&d home. They withheld that information for 37 years. Not only withheld the info, but lied when asked. Admitted the boys were at their apartment but chose to lie about the ride specifically. Were associated with drugs and people who claimed to have knowledge of who committed the murders. It would also fit that j&d walked in on something already transpiring with Sue. But why would two men have beef with Sue? Who would these men be? Despite the current narrative, reports state Sue kept to herelf. She may have dated but those men wouldn't have brought a partner if they planned on doing something to Sue. Grown men don't usually operate in pairs. She wasn't sexually assaulted. I personally do not believe m&b were responsible, there is too much pointing against them and zero legitimate evidence pointing to them. They've been gone over with a fine tooth comb and there is no trace they were in the cabin that night. I cannot think of any other pair that would have targeted Sue. Tina. It seems too unnecessarily risky to remove her from the cabin. J&D could have walked in on something occurring with Tina as the target. Sue complying, or unaware, but things spiraling out of control once J&D arrived home. She being the target would explain Tina being removed. Why the risk was taken. The original investigating officers also said there were certain aspects that pointed towards her. But again why would it be two men? It at least seems somewhat plausible there could have been two in this scenario, if homicide was never the intention. And it's not definitive it was two men. I do believe one perpetrator could have pulled this off. But the weapons, the amount of weapons leans me towards two people. If it was just the hammer and a knife that could still be one person. But it was more than that. There was also the pellet gun and I do believe the swiss army knife was used - or at least another unidentified weapon was used - because Sue had that puncture wound. That was caused by something different. It was not caused by a knife. Those items from the dumpster need tested today. Tape, grabbing electrical cords. I don't for one second believe anyone brought multiple rolls of medical tape with them for that purpose. Who TF would chose freaking medical tape of all things? Duct tape, yeah not medical tape. Ridiculous imo. I do not believe this was a premeditated attack. The items used were gathered from the cabin and someone had to have been controlling the victims when those items were gathered. Two perpetrators or one perpetrator and a victim used to assist with certain aspects. What are your guys thoughts on everything?  |
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Post by snoho17 on Jan 25, 2023 6:53:03 GMT
Great posts Hope! As I was reading I knew I was going to bring up the story of people who'd come looking for the boys at the cabin, maybe to retrieve something the boys took, but I see you had the same thought. The boys aren't home yet so the group splits up with one (or more) waiting for them at the cabin and one (or more) taking off to actively search for John and Dana. I don't recall where that story came from though, but I do believe this scenario could fit into Philips narrative.
Tina, I agree that taking her was risky. And we seem to all agree that the lack of hammer blows to the skull indicates she was probably strangled, or maybe suffocated. I feel like she was hidden out of regret, because she wasn't necessarily the prime target, and whoever did this was ashamed of having hurt a little girl. I think she could have been whisked out the back in a panic by someone who was surprised to see a little girl coming down the hall. Or possibly she made a break for it and made it outside. Either way, the killers didn't want to subject her to the scene in the living room. Maybe she is strangled in the house, and they take her because that leaves the possibility that she's still alive, so know one has to know the monsters are kid killers. But once they're stuck with her.... Or I'm completely wrong and will come back tomorrow arguing Tina was the target, you know that's how I role:)
I still think it's possible the boys grabbed some of the weapons used to defend themselves and were disarmed by the killers who in turn used those weapons on the boys. I think the knife marks could have just happened during the frenzy, maybe some misses. Do we know how many knife marks there were? And I can't help but come back to Justins statement that he came out and a knife was stuck in the wall. I'd be happy to dismiss that statement except an officer went back and took that part of the wall, so he must have seen a mark to indicate the wall had been stabbed there? But then, who removed it from the wall and when? We have several people including Justin who may have been through the crime scene before law enforcement arrived.
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Post by Hope on Jan 25, 2023 14:36:25 GMT
I agree completely, snoho! I'm constantly back & forth between Tina as target vs. J&D. From the beginning (online, not the real investigation) everything released has been focused on Marty & Bo. There has never been an unbiased, all the facts laid out look into this case. Worse now than ever because a theory is being protected. A theory was decided to be true and from then on only information pertaining to that theory has been released. Anything pointing elsewhere or discrediting the theory is "buried". The definition confirmation bias. That's the truth. We know there are many files which point to other suspects. Those aren't released. Many other files should back up the usual claims constantly made, but these aren't being released either. And the only reasonable explanation for that is because in reality they do NOT back up those claims. Otherwise they would have been posted asap. I always think of Getem posting the square peg into a round hole image. That sums up what is occurring here 😂. At what point does the truth begin to matter? How long can someone keep trying to make that square peg fit before moving on? The truth & justice is what's important here, not egos or theories.
I can completely understand why 1981 PCSO could not solve this case. They didn't have all the technology available today. They were chasing down a hundred leads which pointed in a hundred different directions. With the evidence collected, this case is solvable today. But I digress...
According to Stoy's report there were 8 stab marks in the "North wall near door". Plus an undocumented number on the "North wall" (behind the gossip bench) and at least one on the wall Justin claimed to have seen the knife sticking into. Those are definitely interesting, what reason besides intimidation?? Or occurring in a possible struggle, but they weren't done haphazardly. Again, everything just needs to be laid out as is. None of these reports should have ever been made public, but they were and they are being released in a way that doesn't provide the complete picture. And they are being used to spin ridiculous conspiracy theories and used to point blame at and hurt people who had nothing to do with the homicides. I would also like to know more of what Phillip had to say. As well as several other people. Because everything is focused on Marty & Bo being responsible and Sue being the target, very little is known about who could have targeted Tina or j&d.
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Post by snoho17 on Jan 25, 2023 21:33:31 GMT
Yeah, it's hard to argue that many marks being "misses" in the struggle, that leaves me back to thinking interrogation or part of "the Game".
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