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Post by Hope on Oct 10, 2021 22:04:37 GMT
It's honestly unbelievable that the second hammer has somehow turned into a fact of the Keddie Murders. Where to begin. Let's start back at April 1981. The murders were discovered the morning of April 12, 1981. A "blood soaked" hammer & butcher knife were recovered from the living room of the cabin, displayed on a table. The bent kitchen knife was found on the living room floor near Johnny. A .177 pellet and the site ramp from a Daisy Powerline 880 air rifle were also located on the living room floor. By May PCSO announce the weapons found at the scene were determined to be the murder weapons. [Insert newspaper clipping] Fast forward to the mid 2000's-2010's. Part 1 and 2 of Josh's documentaries have been released and interest in the case reignited. LE case files are published and the discussion forums active. During his interview on 4-14-81 Marty said something curious. He told LE his blue handled hammer was missing. LE probably took note of the strange comment but were aware the murder weapon, a wooden handled hammer, had been recovered from the scene. At some point, Dmac is reviewing the autopsy reports and he decides based on some of the wounds that a second hammer was used in the murders and that is why Marty mentioned his missing hammer. Shortly afterward, he receives the anonymous tip from the metal detectorist stating he had found a hammer in the Keddie pond. The tip is passed to Gamberg, the hammer recovered and the rest is history. "Marty's murder hammer" was found tying him to the murders. The thing is, fact a second hammer was even used in the murders was something that came from an unqualified forum administrator with a theory and suspect already in mind. It was not something the original pathologist determined as a possibility. There was no previous mention or search for a second hammer. After Dmac made his deduction, a Pathologist or other expert was not consulted with as to whether or not a second hammer was even a possibility. The hammer was supposed to have been being sent out for testing but we haven't heard a word since. One can easily assume there was nothing on that hammer tying it to the murders, if it was even tested. Furthermore, the wounds Dmac claimed to have been caused by a second hammer most likely were not caused by a hammer at all. These are the wounds in question, from Dana's autopsy report: The difference in diameters of the circular wounds is what lead to the conclusion a second hammer was used. However, also documented with these semicircular lacerations are rectangular bruises, the largest measuring 5". A hammer would not leave that type of a bruise. Those wounds were most likely caused by the butt of the air rifle, which we know was in the cabin. The edge of the rifle butt could have caused the lacerations and the butt itself caused the rectangular bruises. Until an expert reviews the autopsy findings or evidence is obtained from the hammer itself, a second hammer is nothing more than speculation.  |
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Post by mew1987 on Feb 1, 2022 12:35:25 GMT
It's honestly unbelievable that the second hammer has somehow turned into a fact of the Keddie Murders. Where to begin. Let's start back at April 1981. The murders were discovered the morning of April 12, 1981. A "blood soaked" hammer & butcher knife were recovered from the living room of the cabin, displayed on a table. The bent kitchen knife was found on the living room floor near Johnny. A .177 pellet and the site ramp from a Daisy Powerline 880 air rifle were also located on the living room floor. By May PCSO announce the weapons found at the scene were determined to be the murder weapons. [Insert newspaper clipping] Fast forward to the mid 2000's-2010's. Part 1 and 2 of Josh's documentaries have been released and interest in the case reignited. LE case files are published and the discussion forums active. During his interview on 4-14-81 Marty said something curious. He told LE his blue handled hammer was missing. LE probably took note of the strange comment but were aware the murder weapon, a wooden handled hammer, had been recovered from the scene. At some point, Dmac is reviewing the autopsy reports and he decides based on some of the wounds that a second hammer was used in the murders and that is why Marty mentioned his missing hammer. Shortly afterward, he receives the anonymous tip from the metal detectorist stating he had found a hammer in the Keddie pond. The tip is passed to Gamberg, the hammer recovered and the rest is history. "Marty's murder hammer" was found tying him to the murders. The thing is, fact a second hammer was even used in the murders was something that came from an unqualified forum administrator with a theory and suspect already in mind. It was not something the original pathologist determined as a possibility. There was no previous mention or search for a second hammer. After Dmac made his deduction, a Pathologist or other expert was not consulted with as to whether or not a second hammer was even a possibility. The hammer was supposed to have been being sent out for testing but we haven't heard a word since. One can easily assume there was nothing on that hammer tying it to the murders, if it was even tested. Furthermore, the wounds Dmac claimed to have been caused by a second hammer most likely were not caused by a hammer at all. These are the wounds in question, from Dana's autopsy report: The difference in diameters of the circular wounds is what lead to the conclusion a second hammer was used. However, also documented with these semicircular lacerations are rectangular bruises, the largest measuring 5". A hammer would not leave that type of a bruise. Those wounds were most likely caused by the butt of the air rifle, which we know was in the cabin. The edge of the rifle butt could have caused the lacerations and the butt itself caused the rectangular bruises. Until an expert reviews the autopsy findings or evidence is obtained from the hammer itself, a second hammer is nothing more than speculation. <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> I guess this one comes down to more do you believe in coincidences. While Johnny’s head injuries do seem to be consistent to being hit with a hammer (possibly even the claw end as well) there’s also an injury about the right ear I’m not too sure about and Dana had some semi circle head injuries that matched a hammer but there was a hammer found at the scene the second hammer was said to look like the one Marty reported missing but how can they tell? A hammer is a hammer it’s and was submerged in water and mud for 35 years and since became rushed and eroded and any DNA if any would’ve been long gone so what did they test for aside from comparing it to Marty’s this is just me (and could be because I’ve never murdered anyone) but why would you bring your own murder weapon then use weapons that were already there? That doesn’t sense to me |
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Post by karis on Feb 1, 2022 13:09:19 GMT
this is just me (and could be because I’ve never murdered anyone) but why would you bring your own murder weapon then use weapons that were already there? That doesn’t sense to me.
I agree with you, it doesn't make sense. It also doesn't make sense that anyone would report that to a forum administrator and not the police. Not only that but why would Marty tell the police his hammer was missing? That would obviously bring the attention to him. What did Justin tell in that house that morning that would make Marty look for his hammer?
I don't know whether there were 2 hammers or 1 but i don't think you would stop in the middle of a crime and run home and get another hammer with blood on you. Nor do i believe you would bring a hammer to commit a crime if you had access to knife, which was already in the house. That is just my opinion.
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Post by Hope on Feb 1, 2022 14:14:44 GMT
I need to correct a mistake I made in the OP, I had written that based off of what was noted in the autopsy report, didn't have the diagrams at that point. The description made me believe the circular lacerations were at the end of the rectangular bruising. However, now that we have the diagrams to compare, that isn't true. The lacerations are close to the edge of the bruising but the circles extend inside the bruise. I agree, those semi-circles do look like they were caused by the hammer. The bruises likely caused by the butt of the rifle. Apologies, the last thing I want to do spread misinformation! I'll correct the OP.
Despite that, the truth remains "a missing second hammer" was never part of the original investigation. Investigators weren't looking for some missing hammer. It was a theory created by Dmac because of Marty's statement in his interview and his interpretation of the autopsy reports. The circular wounds measured different sizes which led to the theory two different sized hammers being used. However, wound measurements do not equal weapon size. The same weapon can leave different size wounds depending on force, etc. But then an old hammer was found in the pond and the rest is history.
Anything is possible but I find it very strange & unbelievable that hammer has become official evidence in this case. You would expect a thorough investigation would be conducted, and qualified individuals consulted to analyze the evidence, autopsy reports & weapons. Have an expert determine the likelihood a second hammer was involved. A theory created 30 years after the crime + a hammer later found in the pond & no definitive forensic evidence tying it to the murders.
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Post by Hope on Feb 1, 2022 14:59:23 GMT
Doesn't make sense to me either. Or why two grown men would bring a pellet gun & medical tape as their other weapons of choice.
I completely agree on that statement Karis. If Marty was the killer he obviously would know a hammer was left on the table. He would have disposed of his hammer and kept his mouth shut. I can understand why people say he said that to have an excuse in case his hammer was found. But if he already threw it in the pond, what are the chances it's going to be found? If you left one hammer to stage the scene so that LE believe they have their murder weapons, you wouldn't draw attention to yourself by bringing up this second unknown hammer.
The story has changed over the years. I watched People Magazine Investigates again just the other day and they said "two hammers were used, one was found at the scene but the 2nd hammer is missing". It's misleading. People unfamiliar hear that & believe LE knew the entire time a hammer used in the murders was missing. And that is not true. The second hammer didn't become a thing, until what 2013?
But they make people believe LE knew a hammer was missing and then they interview Marty who brings up his missing hammer and they just let him go because they're corrupt and covering up for him. Making the evidence & the narrative fit theory. Crim & Bradley didn't act on Marty's statement because they knew the hammer used murders was left at the scene. I'm sure they made note of the statement but at the time of Marty's Interview the autopsies had already been completed & the ME determined the weapons left at the scene were the murder weapons.
Good question.
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Post by snoho17 on Feb 1, 2022 17:19:44 GMT
"The hammer was supposed to have been being sent out for testing but we haven't heard a word since" I have a big problem with this. Apparently there's plenty of evidence that still needs to be tested/re-tested that was found AT THE SCENE that pluumas co cant afford to have done. There is no way, in my mind, they'd divert what little money they have to testing an old hammer with no connection to the case. IMHO this was publicity stunt in bad taste
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Post by Hope on Feb 1, 2022 17:40:05 GMT
"The hammer was supposed to have been being sent out for testing but we haven't heard a word since" I have a big problem with this. Apparently there's plenty of evidence that still needs to be tested/re-tested that was found AT THE SCENE that pluumas co cant afford to have done. There is no way, in my mind, they'd divert what little money they have to testing an old hammer with no connection to the case. IMHO this was publicity stunt in bad taste Glad you said it. All those legitimate items of evidence which could hold the key to solving this case, just sitting there waiting to be tested. But instead attention is focused on a rusty hammer with no proven connection to the murders. |
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Post by Pooh Bah-hah on Feb 1, 2022 18:17:05 GMT
Right.
"All those legitimate items of evidence which could hold the key to solving this case, just sitting there waiting to be tested. "
Since you know so much about this, please list EVERY ITEM STILL IN EXISTENCE, and where each item currently is stored. Then tell us what you can about EVERY ITEM EVER TAKEN INTO EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE, INCLUDING ALL THE BLOODY EVIDENCE TAKEN FROM CABIN 26 DURING THOSE TWO SEARCHES. The mattress and jacket from 26 are of particular interest to me.
PLEASE, WHERE'S THE LIST, YOU LYING COW?!
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Post by mew1987 on Feb 1, 2022 21:01:54 GMT
Right. "All those legitimate items of evidence which could hold the key to solving this case, just sitting there waiting to be tested. " Since you know so much about this, please list EVERY ITEM STILL IN EXISTENCE, and where each item currently is stored. Then tell us what you can about EVERY ITEM EVER TAKEN INTO EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE, INCLUDING ALL THE BLOODY EVIDENCE TAKEN FROM CABIN 26 DURING THOSE TWO SEARCHES. The mattress and jacket from 26 are of particular interest to me. PLEASE, WHERE'S THE LIST, YOU LYING COW?! And you’re back only under a different name |
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Post by Hope on Feb 1, 2022 21:18:21 GMT
Right. "All those legitimate items of evidence which could hold the key to solving this case, just sitting there waiting to be tested. " Since you know so much about this, please list EVERY ITEM STILL IN EXISTENCE, and where each item currently is stored. Then tell us what you can about EVERY ITEM EVER TAKEN INTO EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE, INCLUDING ALL THE BLOODY EVIDENCE TAKEN FROM CABIN 26 DURING THOSE TWO SEARCHES. The mattress and jacket from 26 are of particular interest to me. PLEASE, WHERE'S THE LIST, YOU LYING COW?! Obviously I would have no way of knowing every piece of evidence still in existence. Only the Investigating officers are privy to that information. I can tell you what was collected and what should still be in evidence. There's over 100 items listed in the evidence report. keddietruth.freeforums.net/thread/37/stoys-photographic-evidence-reportAnd that doesn't include the items collected during the autopsies + the evidence collected at Camp Eighteen. That's a whole lot of evidence the original investigators took the time to collect. The chances none of these items are still in existence is zero. However, the likelihood of most, if not all the items, still being in evidence is high. We know crucial evidence was still in existence in 2003 & 2004, when it was sent of for testing. keddietruth.freeforums.net/thread/56/evidence-freezerAnd here are some quotes from Madison Wade following her Interviews with Hagwood & Gamberg. There have been other similar statements over the years, but these are the most recent, from April 2020. ABC 10 Unsolved California Part 2: "Since the Keddie Murders took place April 11, 1981, the resort has completely changed. The cabin where the murders happened no longer stands. It was condemned and demolished. But all the evidence inside is stored at the Plumas County Sheriff's office."And from Madison Wade's FB live www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.facebook.com/madisonwadetv/videos/unsolved-california-tonight-at-11-keddie-murders/182117590406104/%3F__so__%3Dpermalink%26__rv__%3Drelated_videos%26locale%3Dhi_IN%26_rdr&ved=2ahUKEwi8rM7ao9_1AhXdQTABHT8KDTIQtwJ6BAgjEAI&usg=AOvVaw2JNndHcoK_3BQ7eLYH02dL"The cabin is no longer there. It was condemned, it was demolished. All of the evidence from inside that cabin still exists in the Plumas County Sheriff's Office, in their evidence locker. Um, I say locker, but it's like a warehouse because they took the carpet, they took the wallpaper. I mean blood was splattered everywhere. I mean a lot of evidence was taken."As for the search on cabin 26, they removed some laundry, a mattress, and a red jacket. The items were tested & were negative for blood. To answer your question & ease your suspicion, a Criminologist was available to test these items. In addition to Crim & Bradley, who probably arrived later, the DOJ had sent crime scene technicians and Criminologist, Bruce Palmer, to investigate the crime scene.  Since the investigation inside 28 lasted over a week & the search on 28 was conducted on 4/16, it makes sense that the DOJ Criminologist was still on location & available to process evidence. Preliminary testing on site reacted negatively for blood. The end. Here's a question I have, if investigators knew Marty was responsible & were covering up for him...why would they search his cabin to begin with? |
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Post by Pooh Bah-hah on Feb 1, 2022 21:32:32 GMT
So, you have NO CLUE where the evidence is, what's been processed, what hasn't. THIS INCLUDES THE HAMMER YOU FALSELY CLAIMED MONEY HAS BEEN WASTED ON OVER EVIDENCE YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT YET CLAIM DESERVES HIGHER PRIORITY OVER A HAMMER YOU ADMIT KNOWING NOTHING ABOUT WHEN/HOW/IF IT'S BEEN PROCESSED OR HOW MUCH THAT COST.
You are such a shitty liar. HORRIBLE person. ASS HOLE, Much?!
In other words, I've just proved AGAIN what a lying asshole you are.
Apologize or don't, because you are filth either way.
SCUM.
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Post by Hope on Feb 1, 2022 21:46:08 GMT
Also from the above link:
"The hammer was sent off for testing but yielded no results".
If you know differently post the proof to prove me wrong.
Dmac-says-so mean nothing here. Go back to your own forum where those things are acceptable.
We are interested in facts and this case being solved by evidence. If there is evidence proving that hammer has been connected to the murders please post it.
The fact you have no problem accusing people of murder or claiming a weapon is connected to the murders yet never post proof tells me you don't have any.
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Post by mew1987 on Feb 1, 2022 22:10:59 GMT
So, you have NO CLUE where the evidence is, what's been processed, what hasn't. THIS INCLUDES THE HAMMER YOU FALSELY CLAIMED MONEY HAS BEEN WASTED ON OVER EVIDENCE YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT YET CLAIM DESERVES HIGHER PRIORITY OVER A HAMMER YOU ADMIT KNOWING NOTHING ABOUT WHEN/HOW/IF IT'S BEEN PROCESSED OR HOW MUCH THAT COST. You are such a shitty liar. HORRIBLE person. ASS HOLE, Much?! In other words, I've just proved AGAIN what a lying asshole you are. Apologize or don't, because you are filth either way. SCUM. What’s your proof then I assume you have some seeing though you’re lowering to name calling and bullying like a third grader in order to prove Hope wrong so come on I’d love to hear it |
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Post by Pooh Bah-hah on Feb 1, 2022 22:55:09 GMT
Her own words prove she's a liar, an ass, and a godawful hypocrite. Talk about altering facts to suit your purposes, that's the sole goal of this viper pit of inept twats.
Now, go fellate some corrupt cops like the suckers you are.
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camfaults
Full Member
Historian, researcher, writer; major focus on cold cases of California
Posts: 151
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Post by camfaults on Feb 2, 2022 0:07:33 GMT
PCSO documents, newspaper articles and autopsy reports have been cited as the sources of information related to the victim's injuries and weapons used/found at the scene. Source citation and the ability to include those sources with forum posts are the signs of serious, dedicated, competent researchers, as shown above.
I am currently going through the newspaper articles on the case and there has never been a mention of a possible second hammer used in the murders. One could argue that law enforcement does not always share every detail of a case with the media as a means of holding back information to use during later suspect interrogation. Let's say there was a second hammer brought to the scene and used in the murders. Then why did the killer or killers search inside the cabin for weapons, locate another hammer, a butcher knife and a steak knife, then proceed with the murders? Someone planning to commit a murder will enter the residence with a weapon. In the Keddie case, the use of household items as murder weapons is indicative of an unplanned homicide. This is more indicative of a fight turned homicide, or an abduction turned homicide, or a rape turned homicide.
If Marty was the killer, why would he use his own hammer? A hammer which he himself tells investigators he keeps on the porch next to his hatchet? Let's say Marty wasn't involved in the murders and the killer(s) wanted to frame Marty, they could have stolen his hammer and used it in the commission of these murders. But why not steal the hatchet as well? I think Marty was a troubled guy, not very bright, and he was just trying to help.
Marty was not the only one during the initial investigation that mentioned concern over a possible missing item. When Daryl Josephson (a recent boyfriend of victim Sue) returned to Keddie and first learned of the crime, he said he wanted to run into his trailer and make sure his gun was still there. This suggests to me that Josephson thought someone could have entered his trailer, knowing Josephson was gone, and stolen his gun. His behavior strikes me as a logical conclusion when you live in an area where a lot of thefts occur and/or you leave your doors unlocked. We know there were a lot of thefts in the area.
As for the hammer found in the pond. I think that was staged. If you live in an area where there was a notorious, unsolved homicide, and you are aware of the types of weapons used in the crime because of the yearly articles revisiting the crime, and you find a rusty hammer in a pond, wouldn't you notify law enforcement of the find and let them retrieve the item? Contacting an armchair detective who runs a forum is ridiculous! The webmaster most likely doesn't live in the area to aid in contacting local law enforcement. How could he help the situation anymore than if the person who allegedly found the hammer just informed local law enforcement himself? Taking into account the interest in the crime at the time (Gamberg revisiting the case, People Magazine publishing its article to coincide with ID's People Investigates episode on the case which aired 28 Nov 2016), the timing of the 2016 discovery of the hammer is suspicious. Let's not forget that Dmac was featured in the People Investigates episode. As the Feather River Bulletin published on 23 Nov 2016: "Additionally, People Magazine is about to release its story in its weekly publication as well as in a book. Representatives from the magazine have spent months interviewing local individuals, including many in law enforcement, and collecting pictures depicting the crime scene and subsequent investigation."
Months were spent in producing a tv episode, magazine issue with front-page coverage of the case and a book. There would have been a long lead up to all this material being published. And who got all that going? Gamberg? Dmac? Gamberg and Dmac? The case needs the exposure. What the case doesn't need is more confusion, and that is exactly what Dmac has inserted into this case. He should back off and let the online community discuss this case and come to their own conclusions, not dedicate his time to spinning an implausible narrative of two hammers used in a homicide committed by two men as a conspiracy involving 3-6 people.
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